Delayed conduction experiment

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  • Last Post 13 October 2019
cd_sharp posted this 17 April 2019

Hey, guys

I just thought to see what's the voltage over the additive POC if it's open circuit. This is the schema:

And the results set on x10 (the pink - A and light blue - B are the floating voltages of the ends of the additive POC with respect to ground) and the dark blue (set on 10 V/ division) is the A-B voltage over the coil. We can see it's too much for the Math function on my oscilloscope.

I also notice the timing. It's exactly after the input voltage was turned off.

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Chris posted this 17 April 2019

Hey CD,

Excellent very worth while experiments! Very nice to see simple experiments being shared that have great importance!

  • Why do the Coils Ring?
  • Why such a high Voltage?
  • Why do you see the same frequency ringing at switch on as switch off?
  • Why no ringing in the middle?
  • What's occurring inside the Core, is the Core Ringing like the Coils are?

If Voltage V = 10 Volts and the Resistance R = 10 Ohms then Current I will be 1 Ampere.

If V = 100 Volts then Current I will be 10 Amperes through the same Resistance R.

Be careful of your scope, over voltages can be damaging.

   Chris

 

cd_sharp posted this 18 April 2019

Hey, buddy

I think the additive POC coil rings because there is no impedance on it. I have seen the same ringing in the Akula lantern no 4 when tuned for RLC resonance. My guess is the capacitors in the probes are playing a role here.

It's a high voltage because the collapse of the magnetic field is very sharp.

It's the same frequency at switch on and at switch off because the RLC resonant frequency is constant, no matter what the change in magnetic field there is.

There is no ringing in the middle because the magnetic field enters the last part of the storage phase and it grows slower and slower. The change in time is small.

I think the core is ringing also, it's probably like a resonant cavity which reflects the wave back and forth.

I have the D.U.T. completely floating, the PSU is not grounded, so if I don't touch the open coil, I and the oscilloscope should be safe.

Please let me know any thougths, corrections and ideas. I'll be coming back to close the ends of the additive POC.

Thanks

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cd_sharp posted this 19 April 2019

Hey, guys

This is the new setup:

I don't know how to add a varistor in Circuit Wizard, so I added D1 and D2 Zener diodes. I'm forcing the additive POC to always conduct such as to add the primary coil by using the D3 diode.

The pink - light blue calculates the dark blue trace. The voltage over the varistor seems to be high enough for conduction, but I did a frequency sweep and nothing noticeable happened.

The varistor is JVR14N470K.

The datasheet shows this graph:

I don't know what I understood wrong and I'm not sure the varistor conducts. Any ideas?

Thanks

Chris posted this 19 April 2019

Hey CD,

This is awesome! I am very impressed with this post! Thank You for sharing!

If I may suggest, remove the Diode, on the one Coil L3, make the circuit like this:

 

The Voltage on L3, when It reaches VC, or Break over Voltage, the device will conduct. If you don't reach the Conduction Voltage on the Coil, the device will not Conduct.

 

 

Remember what we talked about, Rise over Run, the Time it takes to Conduct is important:

 

 

So, the slope of the Voltage Increase on the Coil L3, from Zero Volts to VC, Conduction Voltage has a Time Constant. This Time Constant is important to the Triggering of Magnetic Resonance, this adjusts the Run Time because the Slope Increases with Frequency.

Some may term this Rise Time tR:

 

 

 

This is the Time the Voltage is "Generated", where the Magnetic Field starts Changing.

At Conduction, you have CLOSE to Zero Volts across the Coil L3 / TVS or MOV, because its Conducting, you have Current instead. You already know how to measure Current wink.

   Chris

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Vidura posted this 19 April 2019

hey cd , the varistor that you used is 460volts, this might be too high for your setup?

vidura

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cd_sharp posted this 19 April 2019

Hey, guys

Let me see if I understood correctly. @Chris, the slope needs to be as steep as possible. So, the maximum magnetic field must be collapsed as fast as possible. I guess this the device needs a bigger bulb.

@Vidura, where did you find that? For example, here I see "Varistor Uac/Udc= 30V/38V, Un= 47V", whatever Udc and Un mean.

Can you please explain what's the simbol of Vbr and Vc and how else they may be called from the picture below?

Thanks guys, lots of things to learn.

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Vidura posted this 19 April 2019

Hey cd, I'm sorry I confused the device with the k471 which is for mains voltage with a clamping voltage of 700 volts. Vwm would be the maximum working voltage (used as surge protector), Vbr the break down voltage, and Vc the clamping voltage, when the resistance becomes negligible. Sorry for my mistake.Vidura.

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Chris posted this 19 April 2019

Hey CD,

The Frequency needs to be adjusted to find the right Slope.

Slope is Time dependant: the Run variable, because your MOV or TVS is a fixed Voltage: the Rise Variable

So the only thing you can adjust, is Run or Frequency in this case.

If I am reading correctly, your Voltages are too high, get a device that Clamps/Conducts at say 20 - 50 volts. These things are cheap.

WOW, those datasheets are the worst I have ever read! 

   Chris 

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cd_sharp posted this 20 April 2019

Hey, Chris,

You're right. I can see here the clamping voltage is 93V. I'll try another model.

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Vidura posted this 20 April 2019

 
@CD.

To take into account: the MOV is basically a RESISTOR, a LOAD, although varying on applied voltage. In the case of the device that you used it means that at the nominal voltage only1mA of current will flow, gradually increasing until reaching the clamping voltage. in between this values the device will dissipate as any resistor. If you need a more abrupt switching the TVS diode or a switch might be better.

vidura

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cd_sharp posted this 24 April 2019

Hey, guys

I received the TVS diodes. I tried all of them on this circuit:

Here are the results using BZW 06-13 B , duty cycle 16%, frequency 250c/s:

Yellow is the input gate trace, dark blue is the voltage over the TVS.

From what I can tell, I reaches the Vbr during the input pulse, but never Vc. I did a full frequency sweep.

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cd_sharp posted this 13 July 2019

Guys,

I took some time to make some really good bobbins and wire the coils separately on my new AMCC-200 core. I tried this experiment:

I noticed something that I have seen previously in other experiments but I didn't give much attention. Here it is:

Pink is voltage across the TVS, light blue is the current through L2, dark blue is the current through L3 and yellow is the FG signal.

What exactly is going on?

Chris posted this 14 July 2019

Hey CD,

Awesome work!

You are so close that its not funny! This is the start of the Slapping together of the Magnetic Fields on the Partnered Output Coils!

 

Keep going on this! This is awesome progress! Remember, the Output characteristics need to be Sawtooth Waves:

 

 

With a low Input Duty Cycle and long Off Time, the Cycle will Pump Electrons through the Insulated Copper Coils.

Suggestion:

  • Lower your Input Coil Turns and use thicker wire.

 

This will give you a Faster Rise Time, so the TVS will conduct faster, now take off a few turns at a time and try it.

Awesome Work CD! You're nearly there!.

   Chris

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Jagau posted this 14 July 2019

hi CD

very good experiment

you get ahead

thank for sharing, very interesting

Jagau

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cd_sharp posted this 14 July 2019

Hey, guys,

I forgot to mention, all the coils are wound with 0.6mm diameter (AWG #22) enameled copper wire.

I'll make L1 with 2 mm diameter (AWG #12) copper wire.

I'll keep you posted,

Thanks, my friends

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Chris posted this 14 July 2019

Hey CD,

Your Coils appear to be Bucking, from the Noise we can hear in the Video, and this is good! Very Good! From what I can tell on the Scope it also appears this is the case. So, you have the Delayed Conduction working!

Well Done!

I hope all Readers pay very special attention to this and learn from it!

As you already know, Frequency and Duty Cycle play a Role!

Increasing the Frequency and Decreasing the Duty Cycle may be of benefit, or even decreasing the Frequency and keeping the same Duty Cycle... This is part of the Adjustments needed to get to the end Goal. wink

Time is the Coils Natural Response:

 

 

Voltage is the Amplitude gained when the Electromagnetic Waves Slap together:

 

The Coils also have peak Magnetic Fields, both Opposing. If you study the Ocean Waves and what the cause is, in how the Amplitudes become much Higher that what Science currently predicts, and apply this same cause to your Coils, then you will have a Running Functioning Machine as I have described. 

Well done CD, awesome demonstration of the Delayed Conduction Effect!

   Chris

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patrick1 posted this 15 July 2019

Hi Sharp , what is the akula scope shots you refer too above ?. - also did you figure out if you can stop your coils ringing like akulas do unloaded ?, or if that is even the right thing too do, -  ?.  - i have not managed too see much of his work  and i dont know how honest it is.  - hopfuil of course. 

also i would like too say, - i only understand a little of what your doing, but fundermentally one thing stands out too me, - all of your output power is in phase with the input...  and im doing the opposite ;-D.....   im like* cmon boys get your sht together*..   giggles.

pls let me know what you think about this ringing, - because i have found this kind of interference creates much loading on the input power., without proportional benifet, - although i have only just started exploring this as a possible problem... like yesterday !!

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cd_sharp posted this 15 July 2019

Hey, Patrick

what is the akula scope shots you refer too above ?

also did you figure out if you can stop your coils ringing like akulas do unloaded ?

You can minimize the ringing by avoiding to overlap the coils.

if that is even the right thing too do, - ?

I can't tell, I did not completely replicate lantern no 4. It's using almost 0 power, but it's not self running.

I'm interested in studying devices showing greater output power these days. Ecologically speaking, time is running out.

Chris posted this 18 July 2019

Hey CD,

Thanks for sharing!

Inter-Winding Capacitance in combination with the Inductance of the Coils is the cause of the Ringing. If the Capacitance or the Inductance changes, then the Frequency will also change. A Transformer under load has a different Inductance then if it has no load.

Good experiment!

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 18 July 2019

Hey, guys

Let's examine in more detail the reason why the DC power supply was doing so much noise.

Looks like the Mr Preva Experiment, we see the phase shifting. We also see the big variation in input current and we see that the current measured on R1 is much bigger than the current measured over R2.

This is also happening when the MOSFET is off (at least it should be). Why does that pulse show up when it does? It looks like it's the effect of delayed conduction at the specific frequency of 9 c/s.

The power supply is simply shifting some relays (probably) inside. It does that when jumping certain current values up or down. That's what's causing the noise.

There is no reverse current against the power supply as I thought initially. I used a diode to prove it.

Lots of stuff learnt today. Thanks for the reading!

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Chris posted this 18 July 2019

Hey CD,

I think a Diode may not be a 100% guarantee for Negative Currents wink.

I should note: You have the "Slapping together of the Waveforms" I have described by the sounds of it, and from what I have seen!

 

A sweep of Frequency may yield a find or two!

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 25 July 2019

Hey, guys,

This is my latest progress

I noticed that as I increase the frequency, the duty cycle needs to be increased at a rate of about 0.5% per Hz. I did all this without increasing the input voltage.

But, around 20 Hz ( or c/s ), this does not hold any more. The coils try to slap each other but stop shortly after. So I decided to increase the input voltage and they are back in the "slapping" mode.

Greater frequencies require greater voltage, so I'm thinking there is something wrong with my coils.

Thanks, my friends

Wistiti posted this 25 July 2019

Cd_sharp, you are a very talented experimenter!!!!

Thank you for sharing.

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Chris posted this 25 July 2019

CD awesome work!

Youre getting closer all the time! We need to turn this:

 

Into this:

 

 

In your experiment, I think, from what I can see, we are on the other, Inductive Collapse side of the Input?

Our Input needs to be assisted by the very same effect you are showing. So all one Input assisted Pulse, no diodes.

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 26 July 2019

Hey, my friends

In your experiment, I think, from what I can see, we are on the other, Inductive Collapse side of the Input?

Yes, yellow is the gate signal, dark blue is the voltage over the TVS, light blue is the current through the TVS and pink is the voltage over the bulb (output voltage).

I see what you mean, man.

EDIT: I fixed the circuit schema above, it used to show a cap in the input circuit which was not there. Also, it contained 2 light blue probes. I guess the end of the day is not a good time to make a circuit schema ..

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Chris posted this 26 July 2019

Hey CD,

Like my dear friend Wistiti said:

Cd_sharp, you are a very talented experimenter!!!!
Thank you for sharing.

 

Excellent work!

   Chris

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Chris posted this 27 July 2019

Hey CD,

I shared this circuit here:

 

The MEG Demo Circuit

Where D2 represents a Bi-Directional TVS.

 

The basic idea there, find where L3 assists the input, L1 or L2, but opposes L4.

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 29 August 2019

Hey guys

This is my latest progress.

Beware, the order of the coils is so important. If POCTWO would stay at the bottom, the TVS would almost never conduct (light blue current).

Notice how POCONE (yellow) current is reinforced by the light blue current and the result is visible on the filament of the bulb.

Next, I'm thinking to put some muscle into it, to add some more turns to the POCs. Stay tuned...

Chris posted this 29 August 2019

Hey CD,

Awesome work!

The Rate at which the Fields Slap Together is important - Time Rate of Change of the Magnetic Fields creates a Voltage.

Input Coil needs few turns, Rise Time, an adjustment for optimum efficiency both Frequency and Duty Cycle.

 

 

Yes, also adding more turns to the POC's will help, but not too many.

Partnered Output Coils will show the Magnetic Interactions required when the right. Discussed prior in PM.

 

 

Of course, all to achieve the above, but, Magnetically, or Electrodynamically!

Just do a little bit at a time... So you know what changes: Improve / deteriorate the effects...

You are exactly on track!

   Chris 

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Chris posted this 04 September 2019

Hey CD,

I wanted to say again, you're exactly on track here, everything is right, you just need a bit more fiddling.

Your waveform comparisons:

 

You have everything correct, the Polarity, the equation: 1 + -1 + 1 = 1, you have Action, Reaction and Counter-Reaction, Input is opposed but then reinforced!

Now, keep the same config, drop the input Coil down to 7 Turns, give the input Frequency say 20KHz but at 5% Duty Cycle, this will help, then just tune, adjust to find the right Frequency and Duty Cycle for your Coils.

Where the Resonance needs to be found: ( Covered Here )

 

In the Red Rectangle is the point at where your Input is Exciting your Partnered Output Coils at their resonant point, same as The Mr Preva Experiment, then switch off, the rest is pure Energy Pumping, Excess Energy "Generation".

   Chris

cd_sharp posted this 11 October 2019

Hey, guys

Another try at this with more "muscles", with L1 wound using a lot thicker wire than the POCs:

The POCs still refuse to go into magnetic resonance.

I have a theory in mind, the magnetic field density of L1 is very important. I'll test it, but I'll have to make another spool.

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Chris posted this 11 October 2019

Hey CD,

Awesome work!

If I may recommend, an approach as Tinman displayed:

 

This may help some to get the Coils doing the right thing. You had the exact operation in your last set of experiments, only needed to increase the Output Voltage.

I have a video coming, and along with my last videos, they may help some more.

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 12 October 2019

Hey, man

I still have currents falling to zero together. They oppose, but they don't want to "talk" to each other for too long.

I have current at about 0.075V / 0.1ohms = 0.75A on the pink trace.

I double checked again the right hand rule.

I swept through 0-200KHz in 999 seconds cycle (about 16 minutes each) at 5%, 10%, 20% and 30% duty cycles.

I saw no light although I almost fell asleep once laughing.

I'll give this some thought.

Thanks

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Vidura posted this 12 October 2019

Hey Cd Are you using a unidirectional tvs diode ? This could prevent the coils to resonate,try bidirectional or MOV Regards Vidura

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cd_sharp posted this 12 October 2019

Hey, Vidura

It's a bidirectional TVS.

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Chris posted this 12 October 2019

Hey CD,

L2 and L3 are both seeing L1 as the Primary, the Electromagnetic Induction that occurs in L3, must be a result of L2, not L1.

You can try many things,

  • Taking more time and finding where the Magnetic Field Propagation on Your Core creates this effect.
  • Spacing the Coils at a distance, and gaping the Core that L1 occupies with 2 - 5 mm spacers from L2 and 3.
  • Adding a small capacitance to L2.
  • Dropping the Turns on one Coil. The Change in Current Induces a Voltage, the Voltage defines the Current: I = V / R

 

Many other things can be attempted. It is a case of fiddling with your DUT until you find the conditions that your DUT will let you bring about the effects desired.

Again, the Primary Coil only needs a few turns, 10 turns or so on a machine like yours. 200 turns on your primary is not ideal. This is something I have pointed out many times now.

   Chris

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cd_sharp posted this 13 October 2019

Hey, man

Thanks for the advice.

L2 and L3 are both seeing L1 as the Primary, the Electromagnetic Induction that occurs in L3, must be a result of L2, not L1.

I agree, but how can you tell that is the case. I see the dark blue (L2) falling and at the same time pink (L3) rising. Isn't that a proof of EM induction between L2 and L3?

That page from Naudin is excellent.

I didn't put any label on L1, but it's 25-30 turns, 2 mm diameter. That's why it looks like 200 turns.

Excellent advice, buddy!

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Chris posted this 13 October 2019

Hey CD,

Re:

I agree, but how can you tell that is the case.

 

A little bit of Guess work to be honest. From what I can see the Phase of the Current is the same, not 180 degrees out of phase, so Magnetic Fields, again from what I can see, are not opposing. Even though you have checked the Right Hand Grip Rule, the Time the Magnetic Fields take to fall is too short.

The Magnetic Fields, when opposing will take longer to decay.

There is a problem there, somewhere, and the Fields are exactly in phase. That's another give away, exactly in phase and also Amplitude.

Just trying to help, but Scope Earths would be best at the same point, so as to avoid Ground Loops. Not sure if this is the case in your setup, but looks like they are on totally different nodes? I might be wrong, sorry if I am, and please ignore if I am wrong!

   Chris

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