Zanzal's Longitudinal Wave Research

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Zanzal posted this 19 May 2018

Greetings Friends,

After my puzzling adventure with the Lenz Free Pickup coil I was somewhat exasperated by all of the anomalous behavior I witnessed. I did attempt to describe some of it, but I am no Tesla. I have a very dim grasp of what I am dealing with and while I enjoy hearing the tales of people who talk about mysterious phenomena when I go to do an experiment or replication I put on my scientist-wanna-be hat and attempt to approach things as objectively as my human nature allows. I came to the conclusion that conventional circuit theory simply doesn't do a good job of explaining how electricity can propagate through a single wire. Even if I pretend I have a virtual capacitance which converts my single wire to a closed circuit I am at a loss to explain why this phenomena occurs only at a resonance frequency. Does my selected frequency cause a capacitor to appear in my circuit where I have none? While it may be a great tale to tell your children, any reasonable person should challenge ideas like that. There must be something else going on here. So I decided I'd jump in the deep end and research longitudinal waves. I must admit with some surprise not only do these things appear to exist they are in fact the phenomena which allows for "single wire transmission." The primary challenge has been to de-tangle these things from Transverse EM Waves (Hertz Wave theory). Tesla was convinced that his system was not based on Hertz waves and while I somewhat dismissed his ideas many years ago, I realize now I was wrong to have done so.

You'll have to forgive me here if you are a Tesla fan (i.e. personality cult member), I'm half-skeptic half-true believer, oscillating between the two as a manic bi-polar. Finding balance has always been hard, giving people the benefit of the doubt while at the same time not really going all in on their claims until I could prove them. I'd like to think this is actually the very best way to be, but observations of my fellow man convinces me that this is a rare philosophy. I have to credit Jesus here for his wonderful teachings on how to treat our fellow man without which I'd be an utter pain in all of your backsides. Even more so than you might find me to be at times.

While I would love to go on for some time of all the wonderful things I've learned over the past few weeks I'll wrap up this post with only a few bits for now (more to come). Here Tesla writes in The True Wireless:

It will be of interest to compare my system as first described in a Belgian patent of 1897 with the Hertz-wave system of that period. The significant differences between them will be observed at a glance. The first enables us to transmit economically energy to any distance and is of inestimable value; the latter is capable of a radius of only a few miles and is worthless. In the first there are no spark-gaps and the actions are enormously magnified by resonance. In both transmitter and receiver the currents are transformed and rendered more effective and suitable for the operation of any desired device. Properly constructed, my system is safe against static and other interference and the amount of energy which may be transmitted is billions of times greater than with the Hertzian which has none of these virtues, has never been used successfully and of which no trace can be found at present.

A couple interesting points, Tesla dispensed of spark gaps finding them inefficient. Not something we should dwell on too much, but to keep in mind in the future. Spark gaps may be useful but following Tesla's path we may find eliminating them to be beneficial. Tesla describes Hertz waves as useless, which shows that while he may be a genius he's also got his own unique perspective which many people would rightly point out is incorrect in some respects. The last 20 years has seen great leaps in wireless technology based on Hertz waves. At the same time we see, he is a big thinker, because he views power transfer as the most important benefit but also indicates that his wireless system is superior in every way while at the same time reinforcing what modern science confirms that transverse EM waves have extremely limited range for a power transfer application.

Of course theory without experiment is pointless theory-crafting, but before we experiment we should know what the goal is. Here is what we know about Tesla's Wireless Transfer system:

  • Can propagate faster than the speed of light (under some circumstances?)
  • Can transmit power to any distance connected via earth ground (his wireless system actually requires an earth connection, no getting around it, in this respect his system could be claimed to be not "true wireless" which I think is a fair but for our purposes single-wire/ longitudinal, Tesla Wireless, power from planet earth, etc. is all the same stuff.)
  • Can transmit using a method which allows for the construction of "multi-frequency resonance" circuits.

So can the first claim be proven - I was skeptical but Patrick Kelly's book made reference to a video by Ming Cao:

If you are an expert I invite you to share real knowledge and practical experiments to verify various concepts regarding longitudinal waves. Keep in mind a bunch of theory without any practical testable claims is not really useful to the average researcher (certainly not useful to me). If you are not an expert feel free to share and ask questions but keep in mind that I am not an expert and I am simply sharing my research. There will be concrete claims, that can be testable in this thread at least from my posts...

Recommended reading: 

Tesla's article The True Wireless
JL Naudin's Research: Longitudinal Waves and Transverse Waves Tests
Jack's Thread: LMD Experiments
Roberto Handwerker: LONGITUDINAL DIELECTRIC WAVES IN A TESLA COIL

I found the above to contain helpful information. Perhaps you will too.

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Zanzal posted this 19 May 2018

There shall be wings! If the accomplishment be not for me, 'tis for some other. The spirit cannot die; and man, who shall know all and shall have wings. -Leonardo da Vinci

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Zanzal posted this 19 May 2018

The Hertz wave theory of wireless transmission may be kept up for a while, but I do not hesitate to say that in a short time it will be recognized as one of the most remarkable and inexplicable aberrations of the scientific mind which has ever been recorded in history. -Nikola Tesla

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Zanzal posted this 19 May 2018

Dr. Hertz did not discover a new principle. He merely gave material support to hypothesis which had been long ago formulated. It was a perfectly well-established fact that a circuit, traversed by a periodic current, emitted some kind of space waves, but we were in ignorance as to their character. He apparently gave an experimental proof that they were transversal vibrations in the ether. Most people look upon this as his great accomplishment. To my mind it seems that his immortal merit was not so much in this as in the focusing of the investigators' attention on the processes taking place in the ambient medium. The Hertz-wave theory, by its fascinating hold on the imagination, has stifled creative effort in the wireless art and retarded it for twenty-five years. But, on the other hand, it is impossible to over-estimate the beneficial effects of the powerful stimulus it has given in many directions. -Nikola Tesla

Da Vinci was certain one day man would be able to fly, but it took another 400 years for him to be proved right. Tesla also was very certain that the adoption of Hertz theory's would one day prove to be a mistake and while that is probably not going to ever be the case one does certainly wonder what is it Tesla saw in his own system that made him so sure it was superior in every way. 

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Zanzal posted this 20 May 2018

Ming Cao in his video tells us that the wire in his secondary is 180 meters long. He excites the wire at one end with his primary coil and has a tertiary pickup coil at the opposite end. He scans for resonance using the pickup coil and locates the frequency using his scope. He then calculates the speed of his wave:

Wavelength = 360meters (Twice the length of his secondary of 180m length)
Resonant frequency = ~1.2MHz
Speed of wave = 432M m/s (C being ~300M m/s)

At first I was a little puzzled as to how he came to arrive at 360 meters for his wavelength, but then it dawned on me that this is based on a standing wave which has its greatest amplitude at 1/2 wavelength. I think maybe this can be visualized by drawing the wave over the coil like below:

Of course the wave is actually twisted in space around the coil along the wire, but that's not possible for me to draw.

Update 5/23: Attempts to replicate Ming Cao's experiment succeed easily, however, problems are noted. While my first configuration easily confirms his result, small modifications introduced new resonance points which when used with the same method indicate a velocity MUCH slower than c.

Update 5/24: I created a simple detector inspired by Tesla's detector and also a post by pero555 where he shows off his electricians meter. Wave shown was approximately 1.5c calculated at 1060MHz with a wavelength of 426 (2x213).

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onepower posted this 20 May 2018

I believe Ming Cao made a common mistake due to a lack of experience also because he was following textbook theory and making assumptions. Did you spot his mistake?, first he assumed the speed of conduction was faster because he also assumed the potential must always follow the path of conduction in the wire. This is not true of a HV solenoid coil as shown and the potential will start moving over the surface of the coil as if it were a solid structure not unlike a copper pipe... jumping over the turns.

Do you see how a basic error in perception can skew our results?. Not to mention the fact he has covered the coil with a thick dielectric in which the electrical stress will start moving longitudinally along the dielectric jumping over the coil turns.

As such we should be very careful about what we think we are seeing and check our premise. In fact I have had current flow directly over the surface of a HV resistor bypassing it for no other reason than I touched it. The oil on my skin was transferred to the resistor at which point the resistor surface became the path of least resistance.  

HV and currents with a high rate of change follow a different set of rules than domestic electricity.

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Zanzal posted this 20 May 2018

Could be... Will have to experiment to know for sure. If I am understanding it correctly, the experiment I proposed should address the assumption he made that his wavelength is 2 times the length of the secondary. His calculations are based on the equation wavelength = wave velocity / frequency. The text book method would simply fix the wave velocity at c and not even entertain the idea that it could be greater than that.

Actually on second thought, no I don't think the voltage he was working with was high enough to cause those problems you described, so I find it doubtful.

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Chris posted this 20 May 2018

@Zanzal - Awesome Thread.

   Chris

onepower posted this 20 May 2018

Zanzal

Quote:"Actually on second thought, no I don't think the voltage he was working with was high enough to cause those problems you described, so I find it doubtful."

We could apply some perceptual reasoning and look at what we know.

He has a 2 turn primary which is the brown speaker wire and it has two parallel conductors. Note the size of the black alligator clip attached to said primary suggesting the 2 turn primary is around 1m in length. He tells us the secondary is 180m in length thus if the input was 12v the induced secondary voltage would be 2160v. However if you look to the right of the frequency display we see another display labelled output level which reads 99. If it is 99v the secondary induced voltage is now over 17,000v. So with the high induced voltage, a high frequency near 1.2Mhz and the large dielectric effect due to the coil coating we have big trouble. More so when using standard 300v max, 1X/10X oscilloscope probes.

He also mentions both of the secondary terminals are connected to ground... in what way are they connected to ground?. Does he understand a supposed high resistance between the two grounds is relative?. That is, there is almost no resistance when the high potential can travel as a surface wave over the ground. I have seen much scientific literature and performed experiments which prove as much and water or ground offer no more resistance than a copper conductor at high voltage. We also know high voltage transmission lines only require one conductor and two ground points.

The devil is always in the details and Ming would seem to have made many false assumptions in my opinion. What I can say is that when you see something really extraordinary you will know it.

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Chris posted this 20 May 2018

Hey Guys,

First up, I am still a novice when I talk antenna's, so what I say, I may not be right, its just my gut feeling.

Coil Antennas are used for Far Field Transverse Waves, one example:

Ref: www.petervis.com/

 

I am not sure about the Video, perhaps there may be Longitudinal Waves there, perhaps Transverse Waves. If one were to roll out the Coils, 1.8M and if they were still in the same plane, would one get the same effect at the same distance, no, the Inductance and Distributed Capacitance would change of course.

I am still thinking on this, I will remain on the fence. To be perfectly honest, this area I am having and have had problems with for a long time.

My very average calculations show this could still be in the Far Field, just something to think on:

Antenna Length or Diameter (D): 0.15 m
Frequency (f): 1.234 MHz
Wavelength: 242.94364506 m
Reactive Near Field Distance: 0.00231087 m
Radiating Near Field Distance: 0.00018523 m
Far Field (Greater than this distance): 0.00018523 m

I was very hesitant posting this, this experiment has merit, it is worthy of further investigation! All I am saying, is it may be worth being a little reserved as to the result and drawing conclusions to early.

   Chris

 

P.S: is the scope only at 1V / div? I would guess the output voltage is not as high as it should be according to the Function Generator?

 

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Chris posted this 20 May 2018

Its a little hard to follow, the video is a little unclear.

I believe the 99 on the Function Generator is in db, decibels and I believe this is 0.99, I may be wrong. This would give an output Voltage of 1.12V. 

 

I believe the Scope was set to either 0.01 Volts per division or 1 Volt per division. 

 

Please point out any mistakes I have made guys. Been a long day and my observations are a little rusty around the edges.

   Chris

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