Lenz's Law

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Chris posted this 17 July 2017

This thread is dedicated to our new Member: HD

Some excellent questions have been bought up, and they deserve a dedicated thread all of their own.

Some years ago, I studied Lenz's Law and the effects of it. Once Lenz's Law is properly understood, a lot more makes sense.

 

The next post is HDZeddies Post, I moved it to this thread from the Floyd Sweet Thread.

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HDZeddies posted this 17 July 2017

Hi Chris and all,

I have discovered your very inetersting page and have read some information. by the way I am also doing some work in this direction for a good while. 

What I want to discuss is:

I am rebuilding tom beardons device with 2 C cores of HF core material and permanent magnets in the center. As to be expected we are frontal touched by Lenz Law. in some frequencys it runs better as in others. Sometimes it seems to be very succesfull, sometimes not.

Now - to understand Lenz Law in all deepness - I want to explain my point of view: 

We imagine a simple transformer. If we are energizing the primary coil it creates a magnetic field in the core. This effects a changing in magnetic force in the core and this effects an inductance to the secondary coil. Regarding to Lorents Force and the right hand rule the magnetic force effects a at first a voltage (a potential difference of the mass of electrons) and this effects the flow of electrons according to the resistance of the connected load. During the movement of the electrons they create a magnetic field which surrounds the wire. In the coil these magnetic field are added to a big M field and this is polarised in the opposite direction as the driving M field. 

If this is right understood I have a special question to the timing of this all. 

As I think the voltage is the first we can read in the scope, because without Voltage no flow of electrons.

Then the current can be seen on the scope - electrons are moving.

Maybe in the same time M Field in the core is active.

Now the M field induces a voltage in the secondary coil ?

Then the elctrons start moving and are effecting the M field according to Lenz Law.

Is there any table what shows exactly the timing in the right way in 360 ° mode?

 

If you have some information or links for me, it would be very helpful.

 

regards HD

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Chris posted this 17 July 2017

Hi HD, Excellent questions! A lot of thought has gone into this post, lots of background!

I think you are right. However in saying this, there is more.

Lenz's Law is an extension to Faradays Law: E.M.F = -NdPhi/dt

where Lenz's Law is the Negative Sign (-) in the Equation.

Diakoptic's, breaking a problem down to its absolute most basic components and understanding them individually, then putting the puzzle back together again will solve more for us. Give us more answers.

What are the absolute base components?

Electrons/Ions inside the Insulated Copper Wire are the base components. The Insulated Copper Wire acting as a wave guide, a barrier, where the Electrons/Ions can not pass. Insuring only one direction of travel.

What is Voltage?

Voltage is the Potential Difference of the Charge, from one Terminal to the Other, which is the total Combined Electrons Charge on the Terminals of the Insulated Wire. If each Electron has a Charge of 1.60217662 × 10-19 coulombs, and there is there the Potential for 1 Ampere to Flow, then How many Electrons would we need to give us this Potential Difference in Charge?

A lot: 6.24 x 1018 electrons!

So, Voltage is the Total Charge, the Potential Difference of the Total Charge, or the Charge Difference from one Terminal to the Other Terminal.

What is the Magnetic Field?

The Magnetic Field is Charge in Motion. If Charge is stationary, not moving, then no Magnetic Field Exists.

What is Lenz's Law?

Lenz's Law is a Magnetic Reluctance, a Drag, many terms describe the effects of Lenz's Law: Eddy Currents, Lamellar Currents, and others. All meaning the same thing.

Lenz's Law is Present when the Magnetic Field is present, and the Magnetic Field is present when Charge is Moving and to get Charge to Move we need a Changing Magnetic Field!

When the Magnetic Field is Changing in Time, then an E.M.F is induced, or a Potential Charge Difference can be Induced... and we surely see a very obvious pattern here!

 

I think it is really important to see, we have no Magic here, we are only dealing with Matter, Electrons/Ions and Magnetic Fields Changing in Time, There is nothing else! No Batteries, no Nuclear Power Plants, no Solar Cells, nothing but Insulated Copper Wire and Changing Magnetic Fields.

From this combination, we can power our Technological Worlds, we employ big expensive Hydro Power Stations to do exactly what I have laid out above!

If I think of anything else, I will add to this post. Stay tuned.

   Chris

 

 

HDZeddies posted this 18 July 2017

Hi Chris 

Thanks a lot for setting up a new topic for this theme. I have never expected this. And thanks for the dedicated answer.

I think I got the schematic of Lenz law. My initial question is, if there is a timely dependence pattern anybody has discovered. 

I mean exactly the timeline (in a transformer) between charge the primary coil with electric energy, building up the magnetic field in the primary coil, induce electric energy in the secondary coil, flow of electrons (amperage) in the secondary coil and building up the reactive magnetic field in the secondary. 

The background for this question is, that I made an observation in one of my tests, that in some frequencies the connecting of a load to the secondary coil effected a decrease of the consumption of the primary coil. 

The same phenomene is observed by other guys in other devices. Normally it would be explained with - on the way to overunity - but I want to find out, if this is effected by lenz law. 

If my observtion is in touch with a timeline on the whole schematic of a transformer it can maybe assist the changing of magnetic field in AC mode. 

best regards

HD

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HDZeddies posted this 18 July 2017

I have searched a little bit on the page and found on teaching film about antennas. In this film they explained, that the voltage and the current ind 90° out of phase. 

This would mean in sight of the transformer:

1° to 180 ° Voltage primary coil

181° to 360 ° Voltage primary opposite direction

90 to 270° current and magnetic field (B and E Field) primary coil

271 to 45° B and E Field in opposite direction

And now we are looking to the secondary coil

90 to 270° B Field arrived in secondary coil and inductance started,

This means : Electrons are pushed more in one direction and a Voltage will be created. Then electrons are flowing according to the connected resistive load. 

Is there also a delay? Maybe the voltage must be created to start moving of electrons, Then we could have also a delay of 90°. 

Or the B field pushes directly the electrons and the flow started without delay. Then the Voltage is not so high, because some of the electrons are already on the other side and the potential difference is smaller.

I am not sure exactly with this. Maybe it is a totally other timing.

HD

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HDZeddies posted this 18 July 2017

And maybe it is a difference in resonant mode or in normal mode, Sometimes I reached a resonnace frequency in secondary coil while the phenomen happened. 

Vasile posted this 18 July 2017

Chris,reference to the third experiment in the video that u posted.It sends my mind directly to the concept of a dc motor.In a standard dc motor that has for example 2 electromagnets as rotors and 2 magnets as stators,the electromagnets aproach at the same time the magnets and also they depart at the same time from the magnets,and as we know the assembly is subject to lenz law.Now...in your third example from the video,as one part of the electromagnet approaches its coresponding magnet,the other part of the electromagnet depart from the other coresponding magnet,AT THE SAME TIME.

I think this is the key concept and explanation to why it behaves so ''weird'' or if u like,close to lenzless.Maybe this is what our motors and generators should do.PLEASE REMEMBER Clemente Figueras Generator.As one side was charging the other one was discharging.Maybe this is why his device is so special.We need to open our mind and think simple.

Veryyyyyyy important experiment.Thank you for sharing!

 

P.S.: Maybe Clemente really meant N as North and S as South so they're basicly in atraction not in opposition as the majority belive.

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alohalaoha posted this 18 July 2017

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Chris posted this 18 July 2017

Hi Guys - Awesome! Solid productive Thread!

There is an effect called "Delayed Lenz" where the propagation of the Magnetic Field can be Slower, or Faster than the Source Magnetic Field Inducing the E.M.F.

I first read about this in the book: Spin Wave Technology by George J Bugh

I believe JLN Labs has done some work on this also:

 

In my personal opinion, this is a path of investigation, but I would look at a more straight forward way. Why do I say this, because the "Generation" of Electrical Energy was meant fo this! We have always built Symmetrical Systems, when infact we were supposed to build Asymmetrical Systems. We don't really want to Delay Lenz's Law, we need an exact 180 Degree, or Fields exactly opposing for the "Generation" of Electrical Energy!

@Alohalaoha - The Copper Pipe with the Magnet slowly travelling the length of it because of Eddy Currents is an excellent Experiment! To fully understand this can be very beneficial!

  • The Pipe can be thought of as a single very large Turn, Shorted, or with a Zero Load Resistance.
  • The Changing Magnetic Field Induces Eddy Currents, an E.M.F and the Zero Resistance ensures Maximum Current, Maximum Eddy Currents, Maximum Lenz Law.
  • We see losses, the Magnet does have a Downward Travel, showing us that the Eddy Currents dissipate.

Lenz's Law is a critical component in the "Generation" of Electrical Energy! Once understood, it is much easier to think about its Nature and the possibilities of using it to make our Systems run by themselves!

  • Lenz's Law is ENTIRELY Magnetic in Nature!
  • If no Current is Flowing, then there is no Magnetic Field! No Lenz's Law!
  • It is a Inverse Square Law Force! It is equal and Opposite!
  • It is a Changing Magnetic Field in Time!
  • Newtons Laws of Force Apply, but we must use the Asymmetric Version: Action, Reaction and Counter Reaction!

Mathamatically, we can see, if we have three forces, all of magnitude x = 1, and we arrange the Vector, having Magnitude and Direction, products so: --> + --> + <-- = -->

    1 + 1 + -1 = 1

 

This we have seen before! Andrey Melnichenko

 

I should also note, Phase Shift in a Coil or a piece of wire is entirely due to the Inductance in the Coil. If a Coil looses all of its Inductance, then there can be no Phase Shift. The Coil or piece of Insulated Wire is just a simple Resistor and the Phase Angle will be Zero or very close to it. 

 

@Vasile - Clemente Figurea was brilliant! We must keep one thing in mind: How Electricity is "Generated"!

I use this quote, simple because its the closest to the truth:

PRINCIPLE OF THE INVENTION - Watching closely what happens in a Dynamo in motion, is that the turns of the induced circuit approaches and moves away from the magnetic centers of the inductor magnet or electromagnets, and those turns, while spinning, go through sections of the magnetic field of different power, because, while this has its maximum attraction in the center of the core of each electromagnet, this action will weaken as the induced is separated from the center of the electromagnet, to increase again, when the induced is approaching the center of another electromagnet with opposite sign to the first one.

Because we all know that the effects that are manifested when a closed circuit approaches and moves away from a magnetic center are the same as when, this circuit being still and motionless, the magnetic field is increased and reduced in intensity; since any variation , occurring in the flow traversing a circuit is producing electrical induced current .It was considered the possibility of building a machine that would work, not in the principle of movement, as do the current dynamos, but using the principle of increase and decrease, this is the variation of the power of the magnetic field, or the electrical current which produces it.

The voltage from the total current of the current dynamos is the sum of partial induced currents born in each one of the turns of the induced. Therefore it matters little to these induced currents if they were obtained by the turning of the induced, or by the variation of the magnetic flux that runs through them; but in the first case, a greater source of mechanical work than obtained electricity is required, and in the second case, the force necessary to achieve the variation of flux is so insignificant that it can be derived without any inconvenience, from the one supplied by the machine. Until the present no machine based on this principle has been applied yet to the production of large electrical currents, and which among other advantages, has suppressed any necessity for motion and therefore the force needed to produce it.

- CLEMENTE FIGUERA

 

If we read/hear of stories that are no where near resembling How Electricity is "Generated" then we know that these stories are very likely rubbish! Above is very clear, and very precise, it follows what we know to be true!

   Chris

 

HDZeddies posted this 20 July 2017

 Hi Chris and all,

 

sometimes when I try to understand complicate processes I transfer them into another field. And electrical processes have always an equivalent in mechanics.

 

So I tell you about my transfer thinking of lenz law:

 

Maybe it is like a swing or a pendulum!?

 

Imaging your children is swinging in the playgroud. The swing is swinging forward and backwards always with the same frequency, which depends on the formula:

 

F(swing) = 1 / ( 2 pi * √L/g)

 

where L is the length of the pendulum and g is the acceleration by gravity.

The frequency is the same independent of the weight.

 

The amplitude depends of the strength of pushing. And we push it maybe 1 time per period or less.

 

Now, if we want to have a totally different frequency, lets say much slower, then we move it in start position by adding energy. Now the sinewave starts:

 

in the first 90° of the complete period we have to slow it down by adding energy,

the next 90° we have to input energy to push the pendulum to the next point of changing the direction.

Backwards we have to break again for 90° and the push again for the last 90°.

What we see is that we have to add energy in each position of this pendulum because we are working against the natural frequency.

 

You can also think to push the swing faster as the own frequency.

The start push (current flows is the primary coil and creates a magnetic field) accelerates the swing and then change the direction on the other side effects breaking at first and give a backwards push.

 

If we change back in the free swinging mode, we can see, that the only energy, we have to add is the start energy ( one time) and the equivalent to the losses, friction, resistance in the air… nothing else.

 

If I now try to transfer it to our electrical system and there is a phase shift between induction time in the secondary and creating the opposite magnetic field by the flow of current (Lenz law) this could give a backward push, if we are in the right frequency. And - as more load is connected to the secondary as more current flows and as higher is the opposite magnetic field and as higher is the backwards push.

 

I know, that this is a simplified thinking, but maybe it helps us to understand or concentrate to the right point.

 

HD

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Chris posted this 20 July 2017

Hi HD, Agreed. What we need do is to take simple steps to understand better what we may not understand fully

Then before we know it, we will much better understand our Environment and how it works.

   Chris

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