Measurements

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Vidura posted this 4 weeks ago

Hello Friends, It occurred to me to post some lines regarding the measurements of Devices under Test, and want to invite all who are interested to discuss in this thread opinions, suggestions, techniques of measurements. Most Researchers know that testing of in and output power, COP and efficiency is an important tool when working on AU Devices, but also that it can be very tricky to achieve really reliable results. For this reason it would be helpful to elaborate the best possible convention for trustable measurement techniques and practice. Vidura

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Chris posted this 4 weeks ago

My Friends,

Vidura is right. When Experimenting, I have always said look for the Effects, they will lead you to a greater understanding.

However, when making COP Claims, we must be sure to be accurate, to not kid ourselves and not mislead others.

If your not sure, then leaving an open ended statement is damaging for Us, our credibility, making a statement of "I got COP = 1.3" or what ever and not backing it up with any data does make us look like ammeters and we will be laughed at.

So please, we have Measurement Protocol on this forum, and it needs to be followed!

Many here are very skilled and can help if you need help with measurements!

Resource: Measuring AC Power. DC Power is easy just: V x I with big smoothing Caps.

 

New Rule: Any COP > 1 Claims must be accompanied by Measurements please!

 

   Chris

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Fighter posted this 4 weeks ago

Hi Chris,

DC Power is easy just: V x I with big smoothing Caps.

Not really. I also thought the same that's why I trusted my DC source's readings because I checked it regularly with diverse loads and always it did shown correct readings.

Remember we're researching devices which according to current physics shouldn't exist and the measuring instruments on market are made according to the current physics. Take a look at the following video where all the readings are correct on all instruments (including the DC source's readings) with a usual load until I connect the ZPM then all the readings (using various measuring methods) become very different.

For now no matter how many big caps and diodes I put on DC source's output the readings are still different. So here I have no doubts about the output as I see 2 x 12V/55W light-bulbs shining, as I didn't expected here is a problem measuring the input. I was as sure as you about the easiness of verifying input.

However, when making COP Claims, we must be sure to be accurate, to not kid ourselves and not mislead others.

I'm not here to mislead anyone. I presented my reasons at the beginning of my thread. I have so little free time I would never waste it doing this (not even talking about the money spent on this).

I put all the data I have here, spent a lot of time presenting it in details including videos and asked others to try, to prove me right or wrong. Nobody tried to reproduce it.

Testing it with different power sources and measurement tools would be helpful, it's called third-party validation. It's not possible for a single person to make so may suggested experiments in so many directions, that would be a 24 hours per day full job. What we do here is to present our experiments and our conclusions (which could be right or wrong) so others can try and have their own conclusions.

These devices can only be fully validated when others reproduce it, there is no other way. I was silent a long time here and decided to post only when I was 100% sure based on the data I had at that moment.

To be honest I never imagined there could be something wrong with the input readings, my concern was to find a way to get exact numbers about the output. Even now I'm not 100% sure there is something wrong with the source's readings, actually on input I have 3 different readings from 3 different ways of measuring the current. Still looking for ways to find which reading is correct.

So I will continue my experiments and present them here in the ZPM thread so others can try, just wanted to present my point of view about this topic.

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Chris posted this 4 weeks ago

Hey Fighter,

I believe, reading back, you did not make any COP > 1 Claims, you said:

I'm creating this thread in order to present a device which I think is a overunity device.

 

Clearly stating you weren't sure.

Please, what I wrote was not about you, its a safety net, so all visitors can be assured when visiting, if a Claim is made, then they can be sure we have done the best we can to verify it.

Don't worry Fighter, I very much appreciate your work and the way you presented your work!

My statement is just so we are all protected and all taken serious! I am sure we all want this do we not?

   Chris

 

P.S: I believe your device is one of the best we have presented, so any out there wanting to learn more, your ZPM is the best place to start after The Mr Preva Experiment.

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Fighter posted this 4 weeks ago

Thank you Chris. Considering the troubles I have in determining the input as you can see in the latest video (about output I'm very sure it's a lot of power there), I was thinking the post is related to the experiments I presented, sorry it's 6:12 a.m. almost morning here (worked on presenting the tests I've made in weekend) so for sure my mind is far from fresh right now

I agree about the necessity of finding methods for accurate measurements, as you can see my video is a first and clear example of the issues encountered with this kind of devices even when making DC measurements...

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Chris posted this 4 weeks ago

Hey Fighter,

Accurate Measurements can be obtained using the circuit here.

We have the best people here, all very valuable human beings!

   Chris

Fighter posted this 4 weeks ago

Question: if our fancy digital measurement instruments are so unreliable when dealing with high-frequency, pulses etc. what about using analog devices like this ?

Are they reliable ? I mean we don't need measurements with 3 digits when we're experimenting. Does something like this with an adequate current-sensing shunt be more reliable ? I never used something like this but I just bought one, it's 5A but I don't think it can withstand 5A directly so I should find and adequate shunt for it. Does it need to be tested and calibrated with that shunt ? What if I can't find a 5A shunt, could it work with let's say 10A shunt ? Should it be re-calibrated ?

The reason I'm asking this is because if analog measuring devices via shunts are reliable I'm thinking about making a custom DC source with incorporated measuring circuits which could be trusted in any conditions.

I mean if we're experimenting with devices Tesla worked on and our fancy digital measuring devices are not reliable why not using analog measuring devices like Tesla used ?

For example I could take an auto-transformer like this:

https://www.conexelectronic.ro/en/autotransformatoare/15369-AUTOTRANSFORMATOR-REGLABIL-2-8-A.html

put an adequate bridge rectifier on it then on output I can have shunts connected to digital but also to analog voltmeters and amperemeters, everything packed in a adequate case with a panel where analog plus digital readings can pe shown. Also it can have direct AC output which can be useful when needing a specific AC voltage for experiments.

Of course if would cost and take time to build but it's worth it as long as the result would be a platform with accurate readings no matter what kind of device it's powering.

So the question is: is analog devices + shunts combination reliable ? would be reliable (in terms of readings accuracy) a custom source like the one I just described ?

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Vidura posted this 4 weeks ago

Hey Fighter, This simple coilwound meters can be a good choice when dealing with DC currents, although of these have transients components, spikes or high frequency components. They can be used with shunt resistors to adjust the range. Note that this instruments are basically for DC , in order to measure AC a rectifier and filter have to be connected. This can be quite good for frequencies up to several kHz, if components are accordingly selected. But of we deal with very high frequencies it becomes tricky due to increased sensitivity to parasitic inductance and capacitance. Also most components are limited regarding their high frequency capability. Regarding the autotransformer, it is only for a very limited frequency range, for example mains frequency. But the former method with the simple meter, combined with a simple capacitor-choke filter should be fine for a reliable input measurement on the input of your ZPM module. Although the readings will be more broad , not so much resolution, it should be enough for a estimation of real input power. Regards Vidura.

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Fighter posted this 4 weeks ago

Hi Vidura, thanks for the explanation. The custom source I was thinking about is actually a DC source with variable voltage driven by that autotransformer + bridge rectifier. On the output of the bridge rectifier I would have shunt and in parallel on that shunt I would have digital + analog ampere-meters. Also it would have digital + analog voltmeters on output. So if in case the device powered on by the source is making the source's digital measurements inaccurate (like in my case now) I will still have reliable readings on the analog amperemeter and voltmeter. Additionally (if needed) I would an AC output with variable voltage but with 50Hz frequency taken directly from the autotransformer. So could I count on the analog voltmeter and amperemeter on the output of the source to be immune to pulses, ripples etc. which could come back to the source from the device it's powering on ? I'm talking about DC output which with my actual DC source seems to mess up with the digital measurements I'm using to check amperage taken from  the source (as you can see in my video posted here the readings from source, amperemeter and voltmeter put in parallel with resistor - all are showing dramatically different amperage values). I mean let's say if I would have also analog amperemeter plus voltmeter on the panel of my actual DC source would they show correct values and be immune to the problems the digital amperemeters and voltmeters have now when I power on ZPM and try to make measurements ?

About using filter as you can see in my video I tried with a Schottky diode on the source's positive output plus a big electrolytic capacitor in parallel on the source's output but the digital measurements on amperage are still messed up - big differences between what the source is displaying, what the amperemeter is displaying and what the voltmeter in parallel on that 1MO resitor is displaying. What about the capacitor-choke filter, how would this filter should be built ? I have some small torroidal ferite cores, I can use them to make a choke coil, how many turns and what wire diameter I should try to eliminate the problem I have when measuring DC amperage with digital instruments ? Thanks for your explanations.

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Vidura posted this 4 weeks ago

When we are working with devices using frequencies of several hundred kHz we have to take in account that currents will not necessarily take a closed path as one would expect. At this frequencies one wire transfer of power is common and earth ground plays an important role as well. After watching the video of your measurements I would suggest isolating the powersupply and measurement stage for the ZPM with two chokes, one on the positive and one on the negative wire , followed by two different capacitors, one electrolytic type as you used and one or more smaller ones low ESR type(tantalum, ceramical), near the device under test. With this technique it should be possible to block high frequency transients to a mayor degree. The chokes should have wire gauge according the expected maximal current, the number of turns depending some on the core material , more turns will block down to lower frequency. You can give it a try with what you have at hand anyway. And yes the simple analogue meters are much less prone to react to transients and HF components. If using shunt resistors better avoid wire wound type, as they have more parasitic inductance. Another observation: the continuously changing values on the supply display is typical when HF interference is present on digital meters. I hope this helps something. Vidura.

Fighter posted this 4 weeks ago

Thanks Vidura, yes, your explanations helps me a lot to figure out what's going on and how to address these issues. I will read your answers multiple times to make sure I understand them and I'll try your suggestions.

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Chris posted this 4 weeks ago

My Friends,

I think we need to take a step back.

Fighter has shown a machine that is doing a lot of things, the most important thing is that it is interfering with the Power Measurements! At least it is interfering with the Power Measurements with the Digital Multimeters. Again a common problem.

With Precision Metal Film, Metal Strip, or Carbon 0.1 ohm Resistors and an Oscilloscope, accurate measurements can be taken.

Fighter will get to this when time and resources are available.

Fighter and Vasile are right, the Globe will no doubt be close to some sort of Approximation.

From my understanding, this thread was meant for those that were loosely throwing around COP > 1 statements in their Posts?

Please remember, Fighter did not do this.

   Chris 

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Vidura posted this 4 weeks ago

Chris is right , we can use shunt resistors and a oscilloscope for accurate and reliable results, if measurement for DC (also with HF components) and AC sine waves is required. Some more advanced scopes also have math functions integrated to get RMS values for other than sine shaped waveforms. Specially on the output of many devices we will get composed waveforms, or harmonic distortion. If we don't have equipment to make correct measurements of composed waveforms, a good and cheap method is the calorimetric measurement, which is by the way widely accepted in the most orthodox scientific community. If we we have a device that outputs a complex AC wave, and maybe hardly can be rectified or filtered we can use a resistive water heater with a convenient resistance (similar to our load) measure the start and end temperature in a given time interval, using a scaled amount of water. Then we can calculate with good accuracy the exact power dissipated by the resistance in the time interval. We can use the specific heat of water, with is 4.186 w/s to rise the temperature of 1g water 1°C. Although the actual value is a graph depending on temperature , the deviation is very small, and if we keep the temperature for measurements between 25 and60°C the error will be less than 1%. Water heaters are available for a broad range of power , and different voltages. But when used for calorimetric measurement the only value that is important to us, is the impedance (resistance) to Mach the requirements of our DUT. Regards Vidura.

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Fighter posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello Fighter,

This is in response to your video:

I will post some suggestions and some questions. I hope you will take them as constructive as posible because this is how they are intended.

Hi Vasile, no problem, any suggestion is welcome, the only problem is I don't have enough time to test all the suggestions, that would be a full-time job, that's why I'm sharing the information in my thread, hopefully others will duplicate the device and make experiments in different directions as they want.

1)At 03:41 in the video it says 1M Ohm. I think you meant 1 Ohm. Correct?

That's correct, it's one ohm. In the same video you'll notice I was saying miliampers instead of microfarads when talking about that capacitor, I was kind of tired when I made the video, my apologies.

2)At 06:19 you say the luminosity of the light bulb is confirming you have close to the amperage your source is showing, meaning close to 0.060 mA. It is best not to judge amperage value virtue of the luminosity of the bulb, because it can be misleading. You are using DC in that example, so I can tell you have at least 1Amp flowing thru it. I atached even a picture with a 12V, 55 W bulb. You can see it draws way more than 1Amp. (Picture atached)

3)Again at 07: 32 you make the same asumption like at 06:19.

I was saying that between the 3 readings I had (DC source's display, amperemeter and voltmeter on shunt) the closer reading would be DC source's readings based on light-bulb luminosity. I saw your photo, the problem there is you have no voltage even if you have current; in my case I'm pretty sure I have 24V on input as you can see in this video:

Those two light-bulbs in series confirm that on the output of the DC source is in fact 24V and the voltage displayed by the source is not wrong.

4)At 09:49 you say why different readings between all the equipment? You have a 1 Ohm resistor over there, but lets suppose that it isn't exactly 1 Ohm and it is ±0.1 Ohm, you will have a diferent voltage reading which will lead to a different amp reading, which evidently would be wrong if judged as a 1 Ohm resistor. Another point would be that the majority of multimetres, as you have, measure well only up to 15-20 KHz. The really expensive ones can measure over that and even then only to 50-100KHz range. To solve this problem you need an osciloscope which goes up to MHz as far as voltage readings are concerned.

Don't foget there is DC on the output of the DC source. Even putting a filter made from one fast Schottky diode and a big 10,000uF/60V electrolytic capacitor on DC source's output while making measurements will not change the readings; so why talking about measurement instruments having issues at KHz when they're actually measuring DC ?

Conclusion:

1)My conclusion is simple. Your power source does not indicate well Amperage and maybe even Voltage. Why? It appears your S.G. and/or the black box transistor thing you have there plays the biggest role. Either the high frequency of the switching is messing up with the reading or you have a common ground issue where power flows from the P.S. positive thru either one or both of the S.G. and/or the black box, to ground.

All the best,

Vasile

I just shown in my previous video that the DC source indicate voltage correctly. Also with that noise filter the amperages indicated by DC source and other measuring instruments remain the same so the cause of different readings is not the noise coming back. The "black box" meaning the MOSFET driver is not connected to the power grid, it's connected only to the DC source's output so there is no power leak through it. Also you should see the transformer in that signal generator, I doubt it can handle amperes leaking to the power grid through it, it would be gone for a long time if that would happen. About the high-frequency messing up with the readings, I already mentioned that I tried with that noise filter and saw no changes. But let's say there is high-frequency on the DC source's output, it should mess with all the instruments not only with the source. Why other instruments show amperes while the source show miliamperes ? Makes no sense. So as you can see there is no conclusion yet on these issues. That's why I'm using my free time to share this information, so others can replicate ZPM and start experimenting with it else there would be just an exchange of hypotheses without real advance. Thanks.

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Vidura posted this 3 weeks ago

Hello all, Only a brief comment about filters: For an effective filtering of interference in a DC line the LC filter combining inductors and capacitors is a good and effective methodology. There can exist common and differential mode interferences, if we use at least one inductor in the positive and one in the negative wire combined with some capacitors in parallel, we can block both types of them mostly if inductance and capacitance values are choosen according to the frequency ranges. Note that a combination of capacitors and diodes will not block interferences efficiently. Vidura.

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Fighter posted this 3 weeks ago

Vasile, I agree with that but that doesn't mean what's powering that bulb is entirely provided by the DC source. Please take a look in the latest updates on ZPM thread, in some experiments I posted there you will see the oscilloscope reading Vpp=240V. That voltage is not provided entirely by the 24 volts of the DC source either. Regards.

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Fighter posted this 3 weeks ago

Vidura, noted, so that diode-capacitor filter is not very efficient. I have on my list to create an inductor-capacitor filter, thanks, will take care of it when I will have some time.

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Chris posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey Vasile,

Please forgive me, but that's a very long way around a simple problem don't you think?

With some 0.01 Ohm precision Resistors, Fighter could have a very accurate result in about 10 minutes! I have already provided the circuit for measurements: here.

   Chris

Chris posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey Vasile,

 

I understand that perfectly and I want to say something here:
1) If we are talking about measuring after the power source, I think he believes that somehow the power is coming from the ZPM to his power source, so it would be irrelevant measuring like that, because once again, the power could come somehow from the ZPM.

 

Yes, the Power does reverse. Yes Energy does come back to the Source, its an Impedance and the DUT see's the Power Source as a Load. This Power coming back reduces the Power Input, Reactance, and yes as a result, the Input Power reduces the more load is applied.

Most certainly not an irrelevant measurement, this is an important understanding step, very important.

One can see on the scope when this occurs, as a Power Factor Correction: 0.0 or less:

 

 

 

2)So, I recomended measuring before the power source, like between the plug of the power source and wall power. I didn't want him to go near with his hands on live wires, that is why I recomended the wattmeter. Of course as you said the resistor method would be more accurate.

 

Yes, a good idea to see what the power is doing. Certainly an experiment that can be performed once more is understood about what's going on. The Input to the Device Under Test ( DUT ) is from the source, and from there, in between the Source and the DUT, the Input Power must be measured:

 

The Power Source must be measured as a separate load because of the condition the Power Source is exposed to. Again, it simply is an Impedance to the DUT.

I have always said, study closely the Currents, the applied Right Hand Grip Rule will guide one from there. Truly, the important thing is the Currents.

I also encourage extreme care with these Devices!

   Chris

 

P.S: 

the power could come somehow from the ZPM

 

If Fighter replaced the ZPM with a Honda 3 Kwh Electric "Generator" would that explain the somehow part? Faraday's Law of Electromagnetic Induction is the Somehow. wink No Magic, No Mysticism, please believe in todays Tech.

I hope we have cleared this part up?

 

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Vidura posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey Fighter, I have seen your scope measurements before, there are some odd things actually. It is likely, almost certain that there's an interaction between the DUT and the power source. I have noted that the waveform is changing when you invert the probe polarity. This could be a effect of ground connection of the scope. Maybe by filtering you can get more accurate results, provided that the filter capacitors don't prevent the DUT to work properly. I mean the current would circulate between the device and the filter capacitors instead the powersupply, and actual current and voltage could be measured between the filter and the supply. You should also take measurements of the voltage with the scope, and multiply V RMS and I RMS. Vidura.

Fighter posted this 3 weeks ago

Hi Vidura, but it is recommended to make sure the scope is grounded, isn't ? So I made sure my scope is grounded and the source is floating (not grounded) to avoid blowing up my scope while measuring circuits powered by my source.

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Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe. This idea is not novel. Men have been led to it long ago go by instinct or reason. It has been expressed in many ways, and in many places, in the history of old and new. We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who drives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians, and in many hints and statements of thinkers of the present time. Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic? If static, our hopes are in vain; if kinetic - and this we know it is for certain - then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.

Experiments With Alternate Currents Of High Potential And High Frequency (February 1892).

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