# Looking for the Knee of the BH Curve

• Topic Is Sticky
• 310 Views
• Last Post 02 May 2020
Chris posted this 28 April 2020

My Friends,

Today an Experiment, one that follows the ideas here: Power Inductor Checker

#### Theory:

When a constant DC voltage E is applied to an inductor L like shown in right image, the current I increases proportional to the time past, I = E * t / L. If the inductance is constant independent of DC current, plotted line on the graph will be straight. However it is affected by DC current, it will plot a curved line.

Thus the inductance and its current-dependency can be easily measured by applying a voltage pulse to the inductor and displaying the current on the oscilloscope.

#### Hardware

Right photo shows the build inductor checker. It applies voltage pulses to the inductor to be checked 50 times per second. The inductor current is sensed by series resistor Rs and the waveform is displayed on the scope. The inductance can be read by: L = Vs * Δt / ΔI

The pulse width is adjusted by a pot and a jumper switch for wide inductance range of inductor's, and the test voltage is supplied by an external voltage source. The test voltage is decoupled by very low ESR capacitors C1 and C2 to retain a constant voltage against high current pulses.

A: 21.5μH
B: Rated current = 1.7A
C: Saturated at 3A (ferrite core saturats sharply)
D: 3.2μH (after core-saturation, it works as air-core inductor, so the peak current must be kept lower than core-saturation point)

I want to be clear: I don't know if this is definitely important to our paths moving forward, it is important to know about and understand none the less.

However: There is some evidence to say that working up close to saturation, may be beneficial. Credit to YoElMiCrO, Vidura and Zanzal for this Direction of thinking.

This idea is not new! Its been around and I have known about it for a long time. The Knee of the BH Curve has been shown on this forum for quite some time, this quote and image:

The Knee of the B H Curve, where we see this region of Non-Linear Inductance, is marked in Red:

I have covered Saturation before, you may remember some of my Images from prior posts:

Posted: here and here and no doubt other places.

The yellow Trace, the sharp peaks indication Saturation.

I want to start this thread off with a simple experiment. I want to give others some sort of idea about the Core and referencing the Core to find out where the levels of Saturation may be found.

### Experiment:

We are going to test a Core Material, looking at Frequency, Duty Cycle, Turns and Magnetising Current to start the Core going into Saturation. Remember, Ampere Turns = Turns x Current! So if we have 10 turns and 20 Amperes Peak Current, then we have 20 Ampere Turns.

#### The Setup:

A very simple Circuit is used. We are looking for the above three things:

1. Frequency.
2. Duty Cycle.
3. Current.

#### Results:

Very quickly I saw a problem with Constant Current on my new Power Supply. The Image showing this is here:

You can see, Peak Current is reached, then it falls off very fast, no more current can satisfy the Coils requirement: I = V / R, known as I2R Losses, to get the Core to saturate. I had to bring my old Power Supply out of retirement to satisfy the Constant Current Requirement:

After trying again, quickly, so my equipment does not over heat, I got this image:

You can see, there is nearly 25 Amps there!

I am going to have to admit defeat here on this Core, I cant get it to Saturate with my Equipment! This core was not a good Choice!

Time to pick another Core, also, we are going to cheat a little bit, this is the new Test Core:

#### New Circuit:

After some work, and getting the polarity right, it appears we have a Core that is starting to go into Saturation:

The slow up going wave, after about 5 microseconds, the Current starts increasing, indicating Saturation is occurring.

Remember: When a Core is Saturated, all the Inductance is lost. The Coil is just a DC Resistance, Current should increase.

#### Related:

Some time ago, I posted a video: Saturable Reactor

#### Observation:

On moving into Saturation, I see a sort of interference, the Scope starts to trigger incorrectly, and I get some extra noise, more than normal! There is some Wire / Coil type interference's.

#### Conclusion:

Looking at the results, we have to agree, I picked the worst possible Core I could find! This Core is out of a Panasonic Microwave oven Power Supply:

We should expect Saturation to be very high, but I did not expect this high!

In the second Core, we still saw a lot of Current used! These Ferrite Cores are heavy duty! I wanted to show that its not easy to saturate a Core, Lots of Turns is needed and also a fair bit of Current normally.

My Inputs were:

• 3 Volts @ 1.51 Ampers DC Current.
• 7.3 Volts @ 5.5 Amperes DC Pulse 50% Duty Cycle.
• Frequency: 50Hz
• Duty Cycle: 50%

I will do more experiments to see if I can get a better result.

I would like to reference a document, worth a read: A New Look at the Bearden MEG© by Smudge, May 2014 - I have to say, I don't agree with everything in this document, but its a very good start to a greater understanding!

I am sorry, I cant be sure 100% on this area, I am speculating, but some of this does make some sense!

Also, the old Biological Thermometer, using your finger as a thermometer is not a good idea, please be careful:

Best wishes, stay safe and well!

Chris

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Chris posted this 28 April 2020

My Friends,

Measuring the BH Curve is not that hard. A long time ago there was a website that looked at this specifically.

I believe this was the website: Fair-Rite Type 43 Material - B-H Curve - No longer around, the link takes you to a different page now. For informational Purposes, I have reposted the Page Here: Measuring the BH Curve

EDIT: Apologies! I have forgotten The RC integrator in the Below Circuit! My Bad, I went from memory and because the content was no longer available, I had forgotten it. I have edited the image:

Note: You need to plot X and Y on your scope!

Most here will know, an Air Core does not Saturate, having no BH Curve, there is still an Inductance however!

What does it take to Saturate a Core? Well there are Core Values, specified on the Manufacturer Datasheet, under Bh or AL or something similar that tell you what the Core is rated to.

Ref: My post here.

There are many other places on the net that show you how to measure the BH Curve. I have a problem with this method, the method is simply, the Saturation we see on the X, Y Plot, is this really Saturation? Considering we saw how much Current was required to Saturate, or bring into Saturation the Core above.

We have many For's and Against's:

### Against's:

• It takes a lot of Energy to Saturate a Core!
• Not all Energy Machines had Cores, Don Smith is one.
• Any Biasing is normally in One Direction Only!
• Most Energy Machines were started by a minuscule of a Watt of Energy!

### For's:

• The use of Magnets can Bias your Core up close to the Knee of the BH Curve!
• Some machines in the past seem to Support this Saturation idea:
• Non-Linear Inductance - The Ability for the Current to Change in the Coils!

I will continue to edit and add to the lists! If you have ideas, please let me know!

Also, please to all here, join in, in these experiments, share your experiences with Cores and Saturation, the more the merrier! We all know from the first example, some core Saturate at very low levels!

At this point, I think it is super important to ask the Question, Why would we want to work on the Knee of Saturation?

• Inductance Changes, reduces, as a Core Saturates.
• Voltage can be Generated as the Inductance Changes.
• Current is changed inversely as Inductance Changes! Less Inductance, more Current, more Inductance Less Current!
• Some talk of a Clockwise Cycle, I don't know if this is true!
• The Core is Electrically Isolated from the Wire, no Charge can pass, only Magnetic Effects are present.
• Mour?

What are the Key Benefits for us to work in the area of the Knee of the BH Curve?

NOTE: This work is to try to reduce the amount of fiddling to make a Machine work! I can not say for sure this will help, but it is worth investigation!

Best wishes,

Chris

Zanzal posted this 29 April 2020

According to:

https://ferd041.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/h2e.pdf

The area in the black box shows the area of interest. A loop in the BH curve.

Chris posted this 29 April 2020

My Friends,

Zanzal is correct!

In the paper, A New look at the MEG by Smudge, Cyril Smith, the following is said:

Most engineers are familiar with the classical B v. H curves characterizing magnetic material, figure1. Here any area represents magnetic energy-density (joules per cubic meter) within the material. The area within the hysteresis loop multiplied by the volume of material represents the energy lost to hysteresis for each cycle of operation. Note the loop is always traversed anti-clockwise.

Smudge goes on to say:

Of interest to OU researchers is the concept of negative resistance, since this represents a source of energy rather than a sink. The next figure shows the Φ v I plot for an inductor shunted by a negative resistor.

Note that now the area is traversed clockwise. It represents the energy per cycle flowing backwards from the –R source.

2. Synthesizing a Clockwise Φ v. I Loop

It is known that, by the use of short-circuited coils, it is possible to divert flux from a magnetic material. Thus it may be possible to synthesize the clockwise loop by stitching together two different characteristics. Consider the following typical Φ v. I characteristic for a saturating material.

If we could arrange for flux within a coil to be positive-going while also going over the positive saturation knee, then when negative-going it does not trace its original steps, but passes over the negative saturation knee, we would get the combined characteristic we desire. The following section is devoted to this possibility.

I am sorry Smudge, I don't agree with some information in this document, no disrespect intended, but I have to say, I think Smudge was onto something here!

As Zanzal has pointed out, the Loop, circled in Black, is in the Clockwise Direction! This should represent an Energy Gain according to what we understand of the BH Loop! I have circled again here, my terrible art work must be excused:

I have to admit, this is partly new territory to me!

I am doing this work, in investigation of, making it easier for others to understand why these machines are a little hard to understand and make work!

Best wishes,

Chris

Chris posted this 29 April 2020

WOW What progress My Friends!

I always have thought, the Noise, its got to be Saturated:

The Noise, the knocking, Floyd Sweets Sponge:

Floyd Sweet said:

Laboratory experiments dealing with magnetic fields support the concept that magnetic flux may be modulated by low level oscillatory means. However there is no lateral movement of flux. Rather, what happens is that the individual packets of quanta are polarized by the initiating and sustaining coherent force the field of the primary magnets or in special cases, electromagnets.

As the low level oscillatory frequency (modulating frequency) from the oscillators pass through zero reversing polarity during . The quanta, being polarized, flip in synchronism with the modulating frequency, presenting a change in flux polarity varying with time determined by the period of the oscillator frequency. Stationary field and stationary stator coils are featured in the machine. Except for a possible low level 60 Hz hum, the alternator is noise-less.

Would be great if more insight was given. It would also be great if more joined in, in these experiments! More the merrier, faster we move forward! While many of us have time, while we are in lock down, lets break through this Ground, make some holes!

Best wishes,

Chris

YoElMiCrO posted this 29 April 2020

Hello everyone.

@Chris.

Yes, that is the behavior we are looking for.
The extra energy should come from the core itself or from another medium.
If it is of the core, of the area that represents losses, but now it would be profit.
If the system does not have a core from another medium.
Regarding the system with ferromagnetic core.
As previously commented the energy that accumulates in the area
left of the hysteresis cycle, between Br / Bs is the magneto energy that was formed
during the magnetization cycle and as everyone knows it will be 0.5Ipk ^ 2Lp.
Yes affirmatively, a magnet would fix the static point of operation, that way
shape during the magnetization cycle we just do that
its relative permeability is that of vacuum.
Now during the demagnetization cycle, when the current ramp
the permeability falls, not as before where the two
decrease, that is why in theory the upper direction of the laso changes.
It should be noted that core saturation is mandatory, but this brings
with I follow another phenomenon that links the two devices, the one that has a core
and the one that does not, being this last phenomenon the real cause.
Again I dare to affirm that Floyd Sweet understood his nature and
he progressively elaborated his well-known SQM according to his hypothesis.

Thank you in advance.

YoElMiCrO.

YoElMiCrO posted this 29 April 2020

Hello everyone.

In order not to distort the Fighter tread, here is this observation.
The Fighter ZPM even though it looks like the document published by N.E. Zaev.,
does not fully share what is published, as it is not exact.
In your case the potential energy is higher by using bucking coils, good
that idea on his part.
In his tread I will talk about what happens from my point of view.
But let's see in practice what Zaev talks about.
This scope image shows what it is based on…

And this is the circuit in question ...

If we look at the mauve stroke, it is Ton's pulse at the gate of the mosfet and the
yellow stroke is the behavior in the drain of the same.
Your system works in the revercible area of â€‹â€‹hysteresis, not in the
saturation area as we are studying.
That is why your system exchanges heat with the medium.
Let's carry out an analysis by simple inspection ...
The resistor parallel to the primary is powered by the source for
the voltage drop time at the mosfet drain, the latter being
of the order of the ns, after turning off the mosfet the resistor remains
powered during the adiabatic response time of the core.
So in theory TD>>TM and the energy gain is proportional
a TD/Tr> 1.
I hope this post will definitely serve the concept in which
your system is based.

Thank you all in advance.

YoElMiCrO.

Chris posted this 29 April 2020

Hey YoElMiCrO,

I have the greatest respect for your knowledge and expertise! Thank You so much for Sharing your knowledge!

What you have said rings true with me, I agree with all you have said, even if there are still things I do not yet quite understand. I am still learning, this Saturation topic is quite involved, and to be honest, I have struggled with this area.

Of course I know the basics, as many do. But putting all the pieces together here seems to be very difficult, I am guessing its because I am not looking at it all in the right way.

I am looking forward to gaining a better understanding, I hope we can make this easy for everyone to grasp! Together, I believe we are on the right track to make the process of building an Energy Machine very much easier!

Thank You again for sharing! I very much enjoy seeing your posts! That goes for everyone's posts!

Best wishes, stay safe and well Everyone!

Chris

Vidura posted this 30 April 2020

Hello Friends,
very happy about this huge progress and the info which is shared. The "oddity" shown by Zanzal is very important as a proof that the histéresis loop can be reversed ! This is actually equivalent to a reversal of time flowing. I believe the effect in the case of ferromagnetic cores can be amplified if operating in the correct parameters in DC pulsed systems, the vertical derivation will increase, and thus also the gain, if the loop is reversed. But it would have been difficult to find the effect that way, as we might not have seen the sense of the rotating trace. We have to be aware that the core is an intermediate medium in this case, the excess energy is flowing in from the Aether when the core returns from deep saturation. We can expect, that a similar effect occurs in coreless systems, when the parameters of interaction between the coils and the environment are correct.
Vidura.

Vidura posted this 30 April 2020

Hello Friends,
very happy about this huge progress and the info which is shared. The "oddity" shown by Zanzal is very important as a proof that the histéresis loop can be reversed ! This is actually equivalent to a reversal of time flowing. I believe the effect in the case of ferromagnetic cores can be amplified if operating in the correct parameters in DC pulsed systems, the vertical derivation will increase, and thus also the gain, if the loop is reversed. But it would have been difficult to find the effect that way, as we might not have seen the sense of the rotating trace. We have to be aware that the core is an intermediate medium in this case, the excess energy is flowing in from the Aether when the core returns from deep saturation. We can expect, that a similar effect occurs in coreless systems, when the parameters of interaction between the coils and the environment are correct.
Vidura.

• Liked by
Vidura posted this 30 April 2020

If I may add my two cent's regarding yoelmicros post about the effect described by N.Zaev: Time ago I did the experiment and noted that with a puls as short as 200ns applied to a inductor it becomes "spontaneously magnetized" that means before a current is actually flowing thru the inductor. but the following demagnetization is about five times longer, and with active power flowing thru a resistor load. The energy returned in form of the BEMF is clearly greater than that from the applied pulse. Practically it is not very useful, as the gain is very low, and it depending on the mass of the core. But it seems that in the case of the ZPM it is notably magnified by the cancelling coils, which would make the effect strong enough for practical implementations.

Thank you all for the great work.

Vidura

Chris posted this 30 April 2020

My Friends,

Another Experiment Today!

I am going to measure the BH Curve on the same Core we saw in the last experiment. I have just posted the old document I used to use to do this, no longer available on the Internet! Re-Posted here: Measuring the BH Curve

My setup is as this Thread points out:

After a few minutes I got the following Trace:

I found the following very useful:

### FERRITE

Magnetic materials are classified as

(i) Ferromagnetic material and (ii) Ferrimagnetic material.

#### Ferromagnetic material – Iron and its various alloys

Hard ferromagnetic material – permanent magnetic materials such as alnicos, chrome steels, certain copper-nickel alloys

#### Ferrimagnetic materials – mixed oxides of iron and other metals.

The oxide mixture is sintered i.e. heated to a steady temperature of 1300 degree centigrade which is maintained for several hours. The material is known as ‘ferrite’ is chemically homogenous and extremely hard.

Ferrite has typically maximum flux density of 0.3 to 05 T, as compared to 2.18 T for pure iron.

### HYSTERESIS

The word hysteresis means lagging behind. The curve gets its name from the fact that the flux density (B) lags behind the magnetic flux intensity (H). B is the cause - H is the effect.

The lagging flux density (B) behind the magnetizing force (H) in a magnetic material subjected to cycles of magnetization is known as magnetic hysteresis.

### HYSTERESIS LOOP

When a magnetic material is subjected to one cycle of magnetization, B always lags behind H so that the resultant B-H curve forms a closed loop, called hysteresis loop.

#### B-H CURVE

1. The dotted curve passing through tips of the hysteresis loops is the normal magnetization curve or B-H curve of the material.
2. In a B-H curve, the value flux density (B) at H is equal to zero is known as the residual flux density (Br). [OR] When a field strength is reduced to zero the core is not completely demagnetized. There still remains a certain flux, called remanent flux density or residual flux density.
3. This remaining flux density in the core when H fell from the saturation value H to zero is called remanence of the core material.
4. The value of H to reduce flux density Brto zero is called coercive forceHC.
5. The maximum possible value of residual flux(Br) corresponding to deep saturation is known asRETENTIVITY and the maximum value of Ho is the COERCIVITY.

#### FACTORS AFFECTING THE SIZE AND SHAPE OF THE HYSTERESIS LOOP

1. If the material is easily magnetized, the loop will be narrow.
2. If the material does not get magnetized easily, the loop will be wide.
3. Different materials will saturate at different values ‘B’ thus affecting the height of the loop.
4. The size and shape of the hysterias loop depend upon the nature of the material.
5. The size and shape of the loop also depend upon the initial state of the specimen.

#### IMPORTANCE OF HYSTERESIS LOOP

1. Silicon steel has less hysteresis loop area. Due to less area, the hysteresis loss is less. Hence, it is widely used for making transformer cores and rotating machines.
2. Hard steel is large hysteresis loop area hence which has high retentivity and coercivity. Due to the large area of the loop, there is greater hysteresis loss. Hence, it is suitable for making permanent magnets.
3. Wrought iron has fairly good residual magnetism and coercivity. Hence, it is suitable for making cores of electromagnets.
4. Ferrite material is known as magnetic ceramic has square hysteresis loop. Hence it is suitable for switching circuits, as storage elements in computers, and in a special type of transformers in electronic circuits.
5. The magnetization curves for different ferromagnetic materials are shown in the figure. For economic reasons, magnetic circuits are designed with magnetic materials in a slightly saturated state.

With some more fiddling, I will attempt to get a better BH Curve and share with all here. More to share soon!

Best wishes, stay well and safe!

Chris

Chris posted this 01 May 2020

My Friends,

After a little more playing around, I have a little more information:

I was asked for the Circuit used, here it is:

Where:

• V1 is an Audio Amplifier driven by a Sine Wave Generator.
• C1 is a Non Polarised Motor Start Electrolytic Capacitor.
• VR1 is a 500K Pot tuned to best Scope Output.

You can see, the sharp yellow peaks are the Current, the Core is well in Saturation! You can see in the H Curve scope shot, the Saturation peaks are well up on the Saturation part of the Curve. Some BH Curves have lots of area inside the BH Curve, Ferrites normally have little are inside the Curve. Remember, the area inside the BH Curve is Energy lost, to traverse the BH Curve.

This core appears to loose very little energy while traversing the BH Curve!

Best wishes,

Chris

Chris posted this 02 May 2020

My Friends,

Recent experiments have given insight on the BH Curve and what sort of Current ( I ) through the Turns ( N ), the Inductance ( L ), in some specific Core Materials ( μ ), Core Permeability.

I know the basics here, but am limited, so bear with me! YoElMiCrO has kindly pointed out, Permeability is important here:

First order equation: B = μH

Induced Magnetism in an Alloy ( B ) = Alloy’s Permeability ( μ ) X External Applied Drive Field ( H )

The permeability of a material is not constant, and for a given temperature, it changes based on the intensity of the applied external magnetic field ( H ).  The relative aspect of permeability is more apparent when illustrated with a graph depicting a material’s permeability relative to the applied external field.

Ref: Magnetic Permeability

I am stuck! So help me out here?

Magnetic Field Strength ( H ) and Magnetic Field Density ( B ) are related to Energy!

The magnetic fields generated by currents and calculated from Ampere's Law or the Biot-Savart Law are characterized by the magnetic field B measured in Tesla. But when the generated fields pass through magnetic materials which themselves contribute internal magnetic fields, ambiguities can arise about what part of the field comes from the external currents and what comes from the material itself. It has been common practice to define another magnetic field quantity, usually called the "magnetic field strength" designated by H.

The unit for the magnetic field strength H can be derived from its relationship to the magnetic field B, B=μH. Since the unit of magnetic permeability μ is N/A2, then the unit for the magnetic field strength is:

T/(N/A2) = (N/Am)/(N/A2) = A/m

An older unit for magnetic field strength is the oersted: 1 A/m = 0.01257 oersted

The Magnetic Field Strength ( H ) or A/m or Ampere per metre, this definition is directly related to Current per meter. Amazingly, if we lookup the SI Units Table, we see this:

• Quantity: Magnetic Displacement
• Symbol: H = 1/μo B
• Common Units: Amps/m
• Units Symbol: A/m
• SI Base Units: A/m

The Magnetic Field ( B ), or T = Wb/m2

• Quantity: Magnetic Field
• Symbol: B = ∇×A
• Common Units: Teslas = Wb/m2 = N/A-m
• Units Symbol: T = Wb/m2
• SI Base Units: kg/A-s2

And for Magnetic Permeability μ is in units of N/A2

• Quantity: Magn. Permeability Free Space
• Symbol: μo
• Common Units: 4π×10−7 Henrys/meter
• Units Symbol: H/m = N/A2
• SI Base Units: kg-m/A2 -s2

You will note, the thread Non-Linear Inductance shows the relationship between Current and Inductance, well here we see this again: Permeability μ Henrys/meter and Magnetic Displacement H = 1/μo B or Amps/m or A/m.

Now, lets look at the Curve again, where Permeability μ Henrys/meter:

Now, where I am stuck is the slope and magnitude of the Curve vs the BH Curve. This appears to be a very Conservation of Energy type curve, or am I completely wrong?

A close up of the area in question:

So, we have a situation, Permeability measured in Henrys per meter ( H/m ) or Newton Per Square Ampere ( N/A2 ), goes up, and comes back down with B, Newton Per Ampere Per Meter ( N/A-m ), and H, or A/m or Ampere per metre, the difference in Value between B and H.

Of course, we don't want to be wasting Current, seen as big spikes above!

At the moment, I think the line: "ambiguities can arise about what part of the field comes from the external currents and what comes from the material itself." is important to think about here.

I need more time to think. I see many problems and I do not understand what is occurring here yet.

Chris

Chris posted this 02 May 2020

My Friends,

I want to Thank YoElMiCrO for sharing his expertise! I very much appreciate his effort to share! I appreciate all of you! Thank You for sharing!

As you can see, I am still learning, I am actively investigating how to further understand the requirements for excessive Energy Generation!

Together we can break new ground! I cant do it by myself! Everyone here is keen to share and get this out I am sure!

Best wishes, Stay safe and well!

Chris

Members Online:

No one online at the moment

Since Nov 27 2018
Our Above Unity Machines:

More than anything else, your contributions to this forum are most important! We are trying to actively get all visitors involved, but we do only have a few main contributors, which are very much appreciated! If you would like to see more pages with more detailed experiments and answers, perhaps a contribution of another type maybe possible:

Donate (PayPal)

The content I am sharing is not only unique, but is changing the world as we know it! Please Support Us!

Donate (Patreon)

Thank You So Much!

Start Here:
Weeks High Earners:
The great Nikola Tesla:

Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point of the universe. This idea is not novel. Men have been led to it long ago go by instinct or reason. It has been expressed in many ways, and in many places, in the history of old and new. We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who drives power from the earth; we find it among the subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians, and in many hints and statements of thinkers of the present time. Throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static or kinetic? If static, our hopes are in vain; if kinetic - and this we know it is for certain - then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheelwork of nature.

Experiments With Alternate Currents Of High Potential And High Frequency (February 1892).