Fringe Experiments With VTA Style POCs

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FringeIdeas posted this 4 weeks ago

Hey!

Starting a new thread for this. But it's sort of a continuation of this thread and post fringeideas-non-inductive-coil-experiment.

This is my experiments with the Floyd Sweet VTA style POCs.

 

Specs:

  • 0.8 mm wire, each coil is 250 turns, CW and CCW wound. 
  • 3 mm gap in between the coils.
  • 3 mm gap between each magnet and its adjacent coil.
  • CSA is about 54 mm x 105 mm.
  • Coils length is about 14 mm or so.
  • Magnets are 150x102x12 mm (I also have a few 150x102x25 mm magnets).
  • The core material is taken from a microwave oven transformer, hacked to pieces.

 

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FringeIdeas posted this 4 weeks ago

First, Chris, kind of funny. I mentioned I had actually seen that slow rise of the voltage and brushed it off as a bad scope or probe. But also, when I first built this particular build I had also noticed the limited frequency range in which the bulb would light. I built the second setup with ferrite thinking that would help but it didn't. So I concluded that the coupling between the coils was just horrible, and I put them on the shelf. 😄 My my, I step over a lot of things that are right in my face.


So, I went ahead and replicated the effect shown in Chris's video here..
 


I noticed in the comments of that video that someone had mentioned it might be the bulb heating up. Which kind of makes sense, I guess. But if I am of the correct understanding, voltage should be there, over the bulb, immediately, despite the resistance of the load. Current of course should rise a little as the bulb heats up and the resistance drops. But not the voltage.


So, I made a video. Two parts. The first part I have a normal MOT with the coils and I show it's not the bulb. I address the flashing at lower frequencies, and the low (upper) frequency at which the bulb goes out. I also talk a bit about how this effect cannot be due to impedance, or core material, standard explainations, etc. Then in the second part of the video I show my build of this particular configuration, on which I threw a 100 turn input coil of 0.6 mm wire, and it shows the effect. Sorry it is not as pronounced as Chris's, but it's there no doubt.


Here is my video, it got kind of long, 15 minutes, but it's good I think.
 


Also, at the end of the video, I mention that the effect reminds me of Chris saying (somewhere?) that the POCs act like a capacitor, and two videos come to mind. One by Steven Marks and one by Akula.


In the Steven Marks video he turns the device upside down, and it starts "winding down". I think there are other videos of his where he talks about this effect. Winding up and/or winding down, even though in this video when he turns it back upright the voltage is immediately back up. Here at about the 2:40 mark
 


In Akula's video, he has a similar device which he hooks up to an incandescent light bulb and shows how it takes a while for the voltage to build. His takes a bit over one minute. Here at roughly 6 minutes into the video, he shows and uses the words "as the system accelerates".
 


Anyway, I'm not sure if that is what we are seeing here, but it really resembles it. It definitely seems like there is more of a separation between POC interactions and the input. I'll definitely be playing with this, while trying not to step over anymore obvious effect 😀


Thanks!
Marcel

Chris posted this 4 weeks ago

Hey Marcel,

Awesome work! Thank You for Sharing and also for confirming the same set of effects we have discussed.

Now, the Coil Structure you have built, it is by itself, a Solid State Electromagnetic Induction Black Box. For most people, this is no big deal, but there is more!

We have Voltage Generated via Charge Separation, and the Current is Pumped via Bucking/Opposing Magnetic Fields, this we already know from prior experiments. The Black Box we all were used to seeing, is now completely clear, see through and we have a full and complete understanding of how this works!

We need to, when you're ready, focus on the Feedforward and back techniques, meaning, we need two of these Coil Structures, the same, and we need to carefully feed the Output of One POC, P1, into the other, in the opposite Coil, P2:

 

We get a Self Oscillating effect going here:

Sparky explains that there is a little part in the Generator that he has withheld from disclosure – A $1.50 part from Radio Shack that could be gotten at 30c in quantity that is not a capacitor (no resonance effects) that divides the current somehow into the circuit being Spherical With light bulb filament parallel, that puts a small µa current into the Power Coil as well as the Excitation Coil, that works with the Magnets in such a way that there is halved A Vector Complementarity ( he calls this unit a: "Vector Oscillator" )

Ref: Floyd Sweet Lab Notes

 

Now, we must note, Walt Rosenthal gave us these gems:

The VTA "likes" to always see a minimum load of 25 watts. 

 

And:

The VTA can be started by momentary connection of a 9 volt battery to the drive coils when the machine is operated in the self-powered mode. The operation is stopped by momentary interruption of power to the power coils. 

 

The VTA was a: Vector Oscillator

 

My Friends, we are very close, you all have way more than you can imagine, the future is going to be Glorious! The other forums, the ones that have a track record of Zero Progress for Decades and Decades, well, they are obsolete and have been for a long time now! We are Light Years Ahead of the other forums!

Best Wishes,

   Chris

FringeIdeas posted this 4 weeks ago

Chris,

Glad to help! And just to be clear, I need to order another set of magnets I guess?

Strange thought, but I'm starting to feel that the magnets just served as a path for the coil flux, and nothing more. Like an iron plate would be a suitable replacement if the magnets broke. Just a funny thought. Don't read too deep into that anyone please. 😄

I'll get back to building and reading up a bit on the feedforward and feedback.

Thank you!

Marcel

Chris posted this 4 weeks ago

Hey Marcel,

No, you can use the one set, just build 2x Power Coils like Floyd Sweet did.

 

Later on, we will see, the Magnets Flux will move, its going to do work later on, in other Coils as well as add some energy to the Power Coils.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

FringeIdeas posted this 4 weeks ago

Ah ok, again, I stepped over the obvious. So four coils, basically utilizing the same space. That is good, I was running out of core material. 😀 I'll start building.

Edit: Chris. Speaking of core material, I've been meaning to ask, if I have not already. Where did you get your material from for this build? And what material is it exactly?

Thanks!

Marcel

Chris posted this 4 weeks ago

Hey Marcel,

I collected the I Laminations over the years. I collected the UPS's that my Clients were replacing, the Eaton 1K and 1.5K and stripped out the transformers.

There was an image here:

 

The I laminations:

 

After disassembly, you can collect the I Laminations:

 

I lugged around and took the time to strip down the transformers over the years.

Best Wishes,

   Chris

FringeIdeas posted this 3 weeks ago

Chris, thanks! I wish it was a bit easier to find parts in Finland. I have a friend who knows someone that works at ABB. He was trying to get us in to the factory so we could grab scrap metal from the large generators and motors they build. So far no permission, let's see. I'll have to keep trying to locate free microwaves online until then.

So.. build complete!

Four independent coils. Two wound cc and two ccw. The POCs will be paired so that, for example, the left side has POC1 on top and POC2 on bottom. Then the right side the same. The coils are 250 turns of 0.8 mm wire each. The core material is a MOT core cut up into pieces and jammed in like tetris with a bit of epoxy. Core cross section is 36x62 mm, and 25 mm wide, each. This time I took the core material straight to the edge, I did not build the gap into the former itself. I have also 3d printed spacers for between the coils and between each magnet and coil. 3mm, 2mm, and 1mm, so I can play with different spacing.

 

 

 

Today I have got a bit busy with house work, but tomorrow I plan to give this a bit of attention. First I'd like to see if I can use only two of the coils to find the same slow rise in voltage that existed with the bigger coils. Observe how it differs from the larger coils, and why. Then I'll get back to reading a bit more about feedforward and feedback, and try connecting the POCs criss-cross like the Floyd Sweet schematic.

Edit: My focus has been a bit scattered so I'll focus on this setup and shelf the RT experiments and spark gap stuff temporarily.

Thanks!

Marcel

FringeIdeas posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey!

So some experiments with the four coil setup.

Looking at the Floyd Sweet schematic, I followed the flux direction of the power coils to kind of assume which coil would be on top within the pairs, with flux pointing inward.

 

 

Just for the sake of looking for effects, I threw a 100 turn 0.6 mm wire input coil over both of the top coils, and I used my top/bottom coil assumptions to come up with my own diagram, which was a little easier to follow while wiring up the coils. 

 

 

Ugly, I know, I'm sorry. So this is set up in the typical fashion where the input coil will fire a north downward, and because of the diode polarities the top coils will not run currents, but the bottom coils will. The bottom coils then feed into top coils and to the load.

I did see somewhere online, an animation where, at one single point in time, the coil pair on the left had inward N poles while the pair on the right had outward N poles, and it alternated. But I think this is wrong. From what Floyd Sweet said I believe that both pairs of coils should be opposing in the same direction at the same time..

When the current in one half of the conductors in the coils (i.e., one of the bifilar elements in each coil) of the device is moving up, both the current and the magnetic field follow the right-hand rule.

The resultant motional E-field would be vertical to both and inwardly directed.

At the same time the current in the other half of the conductors in the coils is moving down and both the current and magnetic field follow the right-hand rule.

The resulting motion E-field is again vertical to both and inwardly directed. 

Assuming I understand that correctly. So...

 

 

Things to note:

  1. The output was quite bad. I believe the input coil placement is stuffing the output. Maybe the outboard drive coils are a solution to getting the input coil away from the power coils.
  2. The rise on the voltage of the output was much slower this time. It took maybe 4-5 seconds to get to full amplitude.
  3. No negative swing on the output. All voltage and current traces were on the positive side.
  4. Also there was zero impact on the input when removing the bulb from the output.

 

Here is the video.

 

 

Chris, two question for you if you don't mind.

1) You quoted Floyd Sweets lab notes with this.

Sparky explains that there is a little part in the Generator that he has withheld from disclosure – A $1.50 part from Radio Shack that could be gotten at 30c in quantity that is not a capacitor (no resonance effects) that divides the current somehow into the circuit being Spherical With light bulb filament parallel, that puts a small µa current into the Power Coil as well as the Excitation Coil, that works with the Magnets in such a way that there is halved A Vector Complementarity ( he calls this unit a: "Vector Oscillator" )

I had read that before, but didn't give it much though then. I want to guess diodes. This sounds important. Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

 

2) This is digging in the memory a bit, but recently, within the past several months, somewhere you posted a quick comment It was something to the effect of "and how can we get a sinusoidal wave out of this? simply....". I'm quite certain it was in regards to Floyd Sweet, but I can't for the life of me find where you wrote that. Do you have any recollection of this comment?

Anyhow, I'll play with this setup, including this input coil, a bit more. But I think the drive coils might be necessary at this point to get the input away from the power coils. I ordered some more wire but it won't get here for another week. And I need to source a few more free microwaves for core material. But that seems like the direction I will probably go with this.

Thanks!

Marcel

Chris posted this 3 weeks ago

Marcel, My Friend,

Sorry for the late reply.

Your questions:

Chris, two question for you if you don't mind.

1) You quoted Floyd Sweets lab notes with this.

Sparky explains that there is a little part in the Generator that he has withheld from disclosure – A $1.50 part from Radio Shack that could be gotten at 30c in quantity that is not a capacitor (no resonance effects) that divides the current somehow into the circuit being Spherical With light bulb filament parallel, that puts a small µa current into the Power Coil as well as the Excitation Coil, that works with the Magnets in such a way that there is halved A Vector Complementarity ( he calls this unit a: "Vector Oscillator" )

I had read that before, but didn't give it much though then. I want to guess diodes. This sounds important. Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

 

Yes, my research points towards Diodes, but I cant say for sure. We know he did use Stud Diodes on the input in the early machine:



I wish I was there and observed this Machine in operation as Floyd Sweet had it. Yeah I can make it work, but my machines are not as good as his was. In time I hope I can achieve his level as he was a guru!

 

2) This is digging in the memory a bit, but recently, within the past several months, somewhere you posted a quick comment It was something to the effect of "and how can we get a sinusoidal wave out of this? simply....". I'm quite certain it was in regards to Floyd Sweet, but I can't for the life of me find where you wrote that. Do you have any recollection of this comment?

 

Yes, I remember making the comment, several times actually, in different places. Yes, I believe you see now, how this works, as it was supposed to work! It is genius!

This machine is, at its heart, an Oscillator that runs on Feed Forward and Feed Backs.

I am so proud, that we, together, have come so far! You guys, that have stuck with me, and believed, you all deserve the credit here, and Jesus, because I feel he gave instructions to share and start this ball rolling. The future is going to be awesome! Glorious!

Those that wronged us, the world will forever know who they were and what they did. They will be held accountable!

Best Wishes,

   Chris

Chris posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey Marcel,

In my studies on Floyd Sweet and the VTA, I noticed the very extensive knowledge Floyd had on Electromagnetic Induction! He wrote in several places about it, but I feel one particular instance at the moment will be helpful?

The page, attached, talks about the Magnetic Field:

 

You can see a fundamental equation in Transformer Theory, one of the more commonly used equations.

It is well known, and we have spent a long time focusing on and studding the Magnetic Field and how important it is, that the Density of Φ, moving in time t, is important for the Generation of Voltage, and we know, B is dependent on Current I through Turns N, through Cross Sectional Area, A, at Frequency f. 

This means, the Load is an important factor! We must use a Load that enforces Current I to Flow.

Walt gave us this Gem:

The VTA "likes" to always see a minimum load of 25 watts

 

Best Wishes mate,

   Chris

FringeIdeas posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey Chris,

I do very much appreciate the information, and little bits of the puzzle within the forum you have laid out.

I'm still waiting for wire, so trying to use my time to read and make notes.

I think I might have spoke too fast when I shared this, I'm not sure.

 

 

I need to stare and meditate on a few schematics and pictures. In the meanwhile, I do have two questions if you don't mind.

 

1) The placement of FB1 and FB2, Am I correct to assume that these are wound on top of one of the POC coils, and that it doesn't matter really as long as the correct phase is taken into consideration? Picture of the schematic so readers know what I'm referring to.

 

2) This is a closeup picture I had grabbed from another thread, sorry I can't recall which one for reference. But you were talking about the size of the cores in the drive coils. I assume this part is what you are talking about? It's a bit hard to make out.

 

Edit: A second picture which is more clear.. 

If so, that is really interesting, they are quite large, extending far past the gap and over the sides of the power coils. Much to think about there.

Edit again, sorry this post is a mess. Found my answer here in your video, at about 5:50, Did Floyd Sweet's Vacuum Triode Amplifier have a Core?

 

Scratch question number 2, but question number 1 is still valid. 🙂

So, I'm still trying to gather information here and makes some notes for myself. And waiting on wire. Good chance I'll be quietly lurking around the forum only reading, not posting, for a week or two. Again, thank you for the direction and information you have given! 

Marcel

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Chris posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey Marcel,

The point of view and the way we describe things, from person to person, especially things that are a little controversial, can be quite different.

With this image:

 

When you say: "Not this", we could see this from the point of view: "What goes up, must come down", but yes, your analogy is correct and the Power Coils must always Oppose at all times.

 

1) The placement of FB1 and FB2, Am I correct to assume that these are wound on top of one of the POC coils, and that it doesn't matter really as long as the correct phase is taken into consideration?

 

I believe FB1 and 2 were would over the top, yes, but I don't know for sure. There are several configurations I have found, but the best, which may not be correct, is on the bottom POC of each Power Coil, Aiding the Magnets Flux, so a Right Hand Grip addition to the Magnets North Pole, and the POC underneath will Oppose, the POC Above, not closely couples, will then Aid the bottom Magnets Flux, Oppose the Bottom POC, but assist/Aid, the Input Coil.

This is my preferred configuration, but there very well may be a better way, I just have not found it yet.

This is a good question:

2) This is a closeup picture I had grabbed from another thread, sorry I can't recall which one for reference. But you were talking about the size of the cores in the drive coils. I assume this part is what you are talking about? It's a bit hard to make out.

 

Floyd Sweet, he was quite the Character, observing his body language, the way he spoke, how he was showing his machines, his level of Native Knowledge, I saw some unique traits. I think he was very smart, but he tried to hide it behind a facade of grunts and constructive criticism.

Walt Rosenthal, legend and guru, said:

The Vacuum Triode Amplifier (VTA) invented by Floyd Sweet consists of two ferrite magnets and two to four coreless wire coils.

 

But, what Walt was told, was likely a miscommunication of sorts, in my opinion.

I can imagine Floyd Sweet pointing, and saying:

In there, there is no core, in there, see.

 

And, this would mean, there is a small Gap, between the Partnered Output Coils, not Bifilar, because the definition for bifilar is:

A bifilar coil is  an electromagnetic coil consisting of two closely spaced, parallel windings. The term "bifilar" describes wire made of two filaments or strands, and it's commonly used for special types of winding wire in transformers.    Here's a more detailed explanation:
  • Two Parallel Windings: A bifilar coil is essentially two wires wound together, side-by-side, forming two separate but closely intertwined coils.   
  • Bifilar Wire: The wire used to create the coil is often referred to as bifilar wire, which is essentially two wires bonded together. 

 

We just did not have any evidence for this, so we must take a more board definition of the terms used.

Like Don Smith, Floyd Sweet had diabolical communication skills, and that was one reason that these machines have laid in wait for so long.

Now, I may not be entirely correct on all of this stuff, but I think I am pretty close. Certainly Experiments show much better results than any of the other forums have ever had!

Best Wishes,

   Chris

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FringeIdeas posted this 3 weeks ago

Hey Chris, again thank you for the information and answers.

Above, concerning the core, I meant to link this video, but for some reason it didn't link and my edit time timed out. Again, around the 5:50 mark.

 

 

And, concerning the way in which the POCs buck, inward at the same time, or alternating.. this picture.

 

 

That actually also came from one of your videos too.

 

 

Around the 2 minute mark, there are this image with this animation.

 

 

Amazing, I've watched these videos 100 times each and there is still stuff I miss, and a lot I forget.

I just wanted to document where I was getting my questions, for other readers.

So, yes, wire is coming. I'll get some cores together as well. In the meanwhile I'll keep going over the videos and the information on www.hyiq.org. The feedforward/feedback is slowly coming together in my mind. It seems like quite a delicate balance, but should be fun to play around with. I'll post more when I can.

 

Edit: Actually one more question, just a thought that came to mind. You seem to quote Walt Rosenthal a lot, saying..

The VTA "likes" to always see a minimum load of 25 watts.

Is it a valid assumption that this 25 watts is the point where the coils became strong enough to, were able to, gate the full flux of the magnets? Or am I completely missing the point of why you highlight this quote so often.

Thank you again!

Marcel

FringeIdeas posted this 2 weeks ago

Ok, so I've been reading, watching videos, etc, and a couple comments and an answer to my own question. Then I'll share a small experiment that I did. First the question and comment.

The question was, why is the quote by Walt Rosenthal shared so often.

The VTA "likes" to always see a minimum load of 25 watts.

I found my answer here, in the pdf that is given, Guidelines to bucking coils, in this Floyd Sweet update https://www.hyiq.org/Updates/Update?Name=Update%2030-11-14

Long story short, current on the output equals more magnetic field movement in the system, which is what is making the system work in the first place. So a lot of energy machines, with certain coil configurations, especially when speaking of the VTA, will require a minimum amount of magnetic field movement to work properly. So 25 watts is not a magic number necessarily, it was just a magic number for Floyd Sweets machine. However, if we are building similar, we should expect similar.

 

So, the comment. I had asked Chris if he remembered where he had mentioned, in some post somewhere, about making the output AC by doing....yadda yadda. I could not remember where this was stated. I found it in the thread 3D Printing Bobbins/Formers for Coils.

The question Chris actually proposed, is here

Chris's answer is here

To sum it up, the answer was to have two units operating 180' out of phase. One providing the positive swing, and one providing the negative swing. Which is interesting, because it seems this is exactly what the VTA is if you divide the machine right down the middle.

 

 

Which leads to my small experiment.

For this experiment I have the four coils, top coils separated from bottom coils with a 3 mm gap. Magnets are present. And two power coils that I'm directly pulsing (pulse, not square wave) and observing the open coil emf on all the four output coils.

 

 

The idea was to see how the coils are responding to the power coils, and to try to get an idea of how the flux is moving in the overall system. The VTA schematic shows the power coils opposing. 

 

 

Which I thought strange because Walt Rosenthal mentioned they were configured in a push-pull fashion. Here, at about 50 seconds into the video.

 

So, for the experiment, while observing the open end coil voltages, I tried both opposing and push-pull orientations. Again, with a pulse, not a square wave this time.

This is an example of the output on one coil.

 

 

Blue is the input signal, it's 50% duty cycle. Green is the voltage over the coil. We can see that there is a small dip during the on time of the power coils, and then a large positive when the power coils are turned off. If we assume this voltage polarity to be "positive", and test all the coils for the same (not inverted), and use the right hand rule, we get what is in the next picture.

 

 

On the left is with the power coils opposing. Assuming "positive polarity" of the coil wave forms, the right hand rule would show all coils would want to have flux outward at the same time. On the right side is with the push-pull configuration. We can see that the POC set on the right side flipped to where the flux would be inward, while the left side is still outward. Again, this is just a pulse, not a square wave. With a square wave push pull configuration we would see the picture of the right alternate, outward/inward -> inward/outward. I flipped the magnets polarity, from both N facing up to both S facing up, but saw no difference. I'm guessing I will once I get appropriate power coils and feedback coils.

 

Anyway, that is it for now. My wire was delivered today, but I still need to source core material (used microwaves) and design/print the formers for the power coils. I'm sure it will be several days before I get everything done and start experimenting again. Back with more soon!

Thanks!

Marcel

FringeIdeas posted this 2 weeks ago

Something interesting, in regards to diodes in the VTA. 

I was watching Energy from the vacuum part 30, Floyd Sweet Memories. Moreso for entertainment. John Bedini is talking about Floyd Sweet using the TVs for viewing fields of the magnets, then he moves on to telling how Tom Bearden gave the name Vacuum Triode. He mentions it wasn't the VTA in the beginning, it was just the Sweet Device, that God gave Floyd Sweet. I think the "God gave him" part might have triggered a memory or something, because then the interesting part..

Quoting Bedini, as he is remembering speaking to Floyd Sweet.

You know I said well, well God told me too, and so I said, well what's the circuit? I said to him one night, and he drew the circuit and he put this diode in there, from one coil to the next coil, and he says.. God told me to do that.

And then he changes the subject to Floyd Sweet maybe not being Floyd Sweet, then changes back to previous discussion about the toaster oven. Here is the video, start at about 44 minutes in.

 

 

Very little information said there, and he didn't really draw anything on the chalk board while he was talking. But it's very interesting to hear about a diode being placed between two coils. 

Marcel

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