# Bucking coils and Joule Thief

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• Last Post 30 January 2018
devesh posted this 16 November 2017

Hallo to everybody, in this topic we can put our thoughts about the relationship between the partnered coils and the various joule-thief arrangements: are there some points in common? How much can we increase a power gain?

I've started my little research taking, as a base, a video from YouTube where a german experimenter shows us how to light up - to a very decent brightness - a 10W led with a source of 2.7V/70 mA.

My attention has been captured by the above very simple, but curious, joule thief which makes use of a very huge toroid (respect to the "normal" ones commonly used in these devices) so I tried to make my own replica but without success... I've smashed my head trying to understand why I was unable to replicate a so STUPID circuit... then I've realized: the DIMENSIONS counts! Did you see Godzilla (the movie)? Heheheheh

In a post of mine (somewhere in this forum) I stated that the wire mass, in some cases, could do the difference.

Well: my replica didn't work as expected because MY toroid was extremely smaller than the one required by the circuit (mine was 3cm OD, 2cm ID, 0.5cm Height, 1 mm dia enameled solid copper wire, where the one required is 8cm OD, 6cm ID, 1cm Height, 5mm dia enameled LITZ wire - 540 unique micro-wires stranded, insulated each other -).

Ok, someone could argue that the total induction, the total impedance and the total capacity of the two arrangements DO the difference but, if it is so, does the LITZ wire plays an important role in the game?

A far as I know, this kind of wire is used in those cases where the skin effect is relevant (high currents and/or high frequencies)... what about if we'll use it in the contexts where, at the moment, we're implementing the various bucking coil's configurations?

With this question in mind I've wrapped some LITZ wires I had around: the base wire is made of 90 micro-wires embodied inside an ultra-thin silk coating/layer; the overall diameter is 1 mm.

I have wrapped 6 of them to form a cylinder-shaped braid (7 mm dia, 540 micro-wires in total) with a complessive wire length of 10 meters (just to be sure to have enough cable to wind a big toroid in the two opposite directions).

I think that a similar coil will be also interesting for the MrPreva's experimentation... more observations will come.

Zanzal posted this 15 November 2017

Some transistors work better than others for a JT. I think a 2N3055 would be harder to use than a 2N3904. Also if the base resistance is too high/low it may not work right.

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Wistiti posted this 16 November 2017

Here is one of my experimenting on this subject.

https://m.

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devesh posted this 17 November 2017

Hallo Wistiti, thank you very much for your contribution!

I noticed, anyway, that there is an important difference between the two joule thief circuits (yours and the german one): yours is very similar to a "common" joule thief(except that you arranged the secondary in a partnered coils fashion), but, in the end, it is made of a primary and a secondary winding and - here the big difference - yours makes use of a very thin wire, while the german one uses a very big wire (not exactly the truth: it uses a numerous amount of very, very thin wires, stranded the joined at their ends, to form a single big stranded wire).

The voltage raise in your joule thief, once the load is connected, seems to me a sort of "reactive power", but it is only a speculation of mine, please don't get offended by my words: yours is a fantastic setup and it deserves some more investigation on how the currents are circulating in such arrangement.

The german one seems to take advantage of the wire mass in some way, and I would like to know how exactly it can produce such incredible gain, only by making use of such characteristic!

Some times ago, during some experimentation, I noticed a similar behavior when I was trying to completely overcome the reactive power: I tried to put, immediately after the source (a 12V Lead Acid Battery, 7,2AH) a couple of diodes and, immediately after them, a 100,000uF/16V electrolytic cap; this combination allowed me to reduce the power consumption by 5-8% with the same load.

Due to a distraction, I short-circuited the wires exiting from the capacitor and I melted them.

Damn...I didn't have a replacement at hand, so I cut a big ground cable which I had around and I used it as a temporary replacement.

The cable I used was an AWG 1 (8 sq.mm) and, once I restarted the circuit, the power consumption decreased to the 20-22%! (same load, same brightness)

As "circuit" I mean a battery, two 10AMPS diodes, 1 big electrolytic capacitor and a 10W/12V LED, with an amp meter (common digital multimeter) put in series between the capacitor and the LED.

Just to be sure, I repeated the test with an inductive load, a simple brushed DC motor, and the results was exactly the same - less power draw, same speed -.

Then I tried with a resistive load, an halogen lamp (12V/55W), those used in the cars, and - once again - same results: decreasing power by 20-22%, same brightness.

Both the LED and the halogen bulb have been measured with a lightmeter/photometer to be sure that the lumens were the same.

The speed of the motor has been measured with a laser meter, to be sure that the RPMS were same, with or without the pair diodes/capacitor in the middle.

So in the end, I'm increasingly convinced that the mass of the cable makes a difference, in many cases!

Zanzal posted this 18 November 2017

I tried to reproduce just with a basic joule thief and I would have agree that the results shown in the video are pretty impressive compared to my own.

It seems unusual that a higher gauge of wire would reduce the current. Was resistance in the larger gauge wire, higher than the low gauge for some reason (poor quality)? Normally lower resistance should be greater current or little change if the change in resistance is very small. So, how would you reconcile your observations against ohm's law? Not doubting, just prodding.

Regarding Lumens measurement is there reason to believe this is reliable? I've tried on my own, with a cheap lux meter and I found it really hard to get results I could trust.. after that I decided to stick with Power In vs Power out... more limiting but less error prone.

Anyway, I find this very interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

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Wistiti posted this 18 November 2017

Hi Devesh! Don’t worry there are no offence! I just show an interesting effect I have acheive with a joule thief an a poc. I am agree with you about multi strand wire like litz one. My experiment show me there are more gain with these.... i have not try with bigger wire size. I can also say poc (bucking coil) are a must to have on this kind of device... Thank you for sharing your experiment!

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devesh posted this 18 November 2017

Dear Wistiti, what increasingly surprise me is the human quality of the people I'm meeting in this forum... Really! Everyone is kind, available, highly skilled and happy to share his own research. In a world where most of people tends to secret, to patent and protect every single stupid discovery it appears to me so positively unusual... This collective behaviour touches me a lot and lights up, inside of me, a real hope that few valuable people can effectively change the game. I'm perfectly aware that overunity is possible and the applications related to these kind of devices are immense. So immense that every single thing which needs power, will make use if such devices soon. The main problem I see, after these devices will have been stabilized and put on the production stage, is their distribution to the masses for two important reasons...the first one is the human perception: how someone will react in front of an "impossible" power unlimited device? Will they trust in it? Will they accept its safety and reliability? Will they make the right use of it? The second problem I see is related to the last question above: an unlimited source of power can easily be transformed, scaled up and inserted into an incredible wide set of new weapons...this is what really scares me! Imagine a group of fanatics, like muslins of Isis, with some plasma rifles at hand, with an unlimited number of shots...or, even worst, a portable weapon with the power of HAARP. From my side I see a great develop and advancement in the human progress, a big reduction of pollution, the annihilation of the hungry and an incredible advance in the space travel (maybe in the time travel), the introduction of the MHD in the boat propulsion, anti-gravity individual jet packs, active filtering to clean up the dirty waters, the transformation of the garbage and so on. But I'm a "sane" man, which think that the new generations deserve a better lovely world: what about others which are not so incline to such progress advance and have the "evil inside"? Please, help me giving some thoughts of you about this.

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Zanzal posted this 22 November 2017

Hey devesh,

IMO the way forward is not about unlimited energy, its a combination of reduced consumption through greater efficiency, and making use of the ability to produce small amounts of energy on demand. Making unlimited power out of nothing presents a problem.. When electricity is used it generates heat in the load, that heat has to be dissipated into the environment. Its good to be imagining what can be done with OU to improve the environment.

Anyone trying to bring OU to market is making enemies of anyone who owns land with oil, who works in a job making batteries, maintaining the electrical grid, etc. Those who own energy stock, companies, etc.. There are a lot of people who won't accept even the idea much less tolerate the evidence. Real people who would be hurt financially by mass production of such things. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't research this, but rather before you run out to try and market your brand new device pause and contemplate the immensity of the challenge you are facing.

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Chris posted this 22 November 2017

Hey Guys,

This thread may also be of use: Mini Exciter Radiant Circuit - Nelson Rocha

Chris

devesh posted this 22 November 2017

Hallo Zanzal, I perfectly and totally agree with you!

But this world needs an URGENT game role change.

The progress, the evolution in general, produces - as usual - some side effects: these are somewhat bigger in certain cases, more than in others.

I really don't care about the destiny of the big petrol companies, maybe I should be worried about the workers in that field but they can be employed in a new kind of production process, in the "job rotation".

In all the other electrical fields, like the grid distribution, or in the battery manufacturing, I think that the transformation process will be slower, due to the fact that the OU devices can easily interact (in the initial phase) with them.

I'm aware about the "enemies", but it's our story: every time a new device has been introduced, it disturbed someone, it have broken some equilibrium, destroyed some economical interest but the people did adapt and, in the end, gone stright forward.

The introduction of the OU devices is inevitable and, even if started slowly, it will progressively cover the whole planet giving prosperity and hope, IMHO of course.

And, to finish: be sure that, from my side, I will give as much as contribution as possible to accomplish this.

@Cris: I've drinked, in a single breath (like a shot of Tequila) the "Mini Exciter Radiant Circuit - Nelson Rocha" 's post and I'm collecting similarities more and more looking at these devices.

Just for curiosity: which one of the drawn schematic do you suggest to start with? I'm attracted very  much by the self-looping one but, affectively, I would tend to build yours...can you please precisely identify Q1 and D2? Then, "Input current" and "Output current" are testing points, right?

Chris posted this 22 November 2017

Hi Devesh - Agreed. We will still need Battery's, a source of storing Charge is still a requirement, even with the best Energy Machines. You see, we cant easily cheaply and quickly deploy Energy Machines to Watches, Mobile Phones Laptops and so on...

Energy Machines still have a long way to go before we will have them perfected in my opinion...

Re your question, I always say: "Go with your gut feeling" - You decide as to what it is you want to work on.

If I may say, I spent many hours on what I did, many hours, before I got to see good results, its a learning curve and one should expect to stick at it until one has learnt to achieve the results.

You can see my progress here: PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit

Note: So called professionals did replicate this circuit and failed, they then called the whole thing "Measurement Error" - It is not!

Read here to see an example: Presenting Failed Replications as PROOF - The greatest contradiction in History

I always suggest The Mr Preva Experiment as a first step, its the best and most important experiment to understand, then the rest follows!

Attached is the calculator I built to measure the Current using a Sense Resistor:

Also Note: I performed Input Measurements separately to Output Measurements - One can not measure Input and Output at the same time, the Circuit will see a Ground Loop.

Chris

Attached Files