Bucking Input Coils - Supporting Output Coils

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  • Last Post 29 May 2022
Andreas posted this 24 May 2022

Hello Everybody,

as I found out in many experiments, the voltages in bucking output coils oppose each other, when the magnetic field in the common core changes. When there is no voltage, where should the current come from? The idea to keep things simple leads to new thinking of it. Here is the idea of a four coiler: I will try this setup next, the input coils are bucking, they will be switched on and off to a DC- voltage source. The output coils are "normally" in series, but there should not be any current in series, because the voltages of L3 and L4 oppose, due to bucking mode of L1 and L2. The current flows thrue the middle of L3 and L4, where the Load is. The currents thrue L3 and L4 induce magnetic fields, who cancel out each other. Because the currents oppose in direction and "meet" together to go thrue the load.

I plan a ring core, L1 and L3 should be wound above each other, as well as L2 and L4. The distance should be something between 5 and 10cm. A transforming effect can be achieved, by the winding - ratios L1 to L3 and L2 to L4. The partnered coils L1 and L2 should have the same values, as well as L3 has the same values as L4.

Are there any experimenters, who tried such an easy setup? It is just a "bucking"- transformer- principle. In conventional understanding, the load will be powered, the source will be "consumed". Maybe the input current rises very fast, there should be additional current from the bucking mode of both coil- pairs. When we shoot off, we hopefully get strong current from the decreasing of the bucking magnetic fields. The residing, measurable magnetic field should be very low, but it surely exists and contains some energy, which cannot flow across the load.

If this experiment is already done in other threads, sorry, I did not see yet. Then this thread could be deleted. There are so many coil- pulsers. In my understanding the goal must be to get as much current as possible thrue bucking coils with a minimum of input. This circuit produces bucking magnetic fields during on and off switchng. The load in the middle of the secondary makes the voltages go in the right direction, along with the current.

I belive, I have to try this. Either it works great or the induced voltage across the load is much too low and or has a very short duration, We will see, I keep you informed.

It should make no difference, when you set the voltage source with the switch in the middle instead of RL. RL goes to the place where the voltage source was. It shorts the L1 and L2 bucking coil. Both setups should be equal.

Kind Regards,

Andreas

 

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leonel posted this 25 May 2022

I am interested in what will be the results of these tests, since I want to corroborate if my analyzes are correct. Thank you! 👌

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Andreas posted this 28 May 2022

Hello,

the above configuration leads to a transformer with two bucking input coils, which are driving two bucking output coils. It is shown in row 3 of this schematics:

When the switch is on, L1-L2 draw a rising current from the source. This rising current produces voltages in L3-L4 opposing the current L1-L2 (transformer- principle). A current thrue L3-L4 flows, which is opposing the current of L1-L2.

Then we open the switch, L1-L2 is without current, L3-L4 still have their current. This means, now when the opposing current L1-L2 is missing, each of the coils L3 and L4 now have a magnetic field. This fields are "bucking out" each other, while traveling along the iron core.

Then the current flow rapidly stops, the voltage across L3-L4 changes polarity and the current thrue L3-L4 flows in the other direction. This means, the polarity of the bucking magnetic field also has changed. Now it is bucking in the other direction until the current flow completely stops.

Here is a waveform of such a transformer. The on-time is between the rulers, about 1 us. the time, the current flow thrue L3-L4 is about 4 us. I hope to improove the current thrue the secondary with higher impedances. If there is any succeed, I will post it, including the whole schematic.

 

Andreas posted this 28 May 2022

According to this waveform, the current flow in the schematics is not 100 % correct. After shutting off, the current in the secondary flows further for the first time in the same direction as before shutting off. Then, in the off- time of L1-L2, the current and voltage changes direction. I expected a sharp back- pulse immediately after shutting off.But instead of it, the current flows further in the same direction in the secondary, then the back pulse occures.

Ok, it is only so clear visible, whenI use a transformer to feed back the current to the source, instead of RL. I think this is worth to investigate further. Hope this could help people with same thoughts, just searcing for solutions, which do not cancel the voltages out.

baerndorfer posted this 29 May 2022

hi andreas,

i do a similar experiment with POC coils as output coils. but instead to use POC also as primary, i go with a ordinary tank-circuit (series connection between L and C). i do this because i like to have voltage and current out of phase. i think it is only necessary to have current - and i do not want to pay so much for current 😎 (reactive power)

you are right! there is a nice current pulse, when the magnetic flow inside the core change direction. the height of this pulse is affected by the amount of windings from poc-coil. so if we have more windings, we have more current impulses with same amount auf input energy. 

on the image we can see the current impulse from POC (CH2).

CH3 and CH4 are the voltages which happen on output coil (POC).

have a nice day!

Andreas posted this 29 May 2022

Hi baerndorfer,

thank you for introducing your own experiments with POC. POC indeed is the right name instead of "bucking coils". Ok, I will use it too. It makes me happy to see, there are so many people, who have found this phenomenom by themselfes. Much stronger then expected rising currents in POCs.

But is it really necessary to get voltage and current out of phase? The goal should be to have current and voltage in phase on the load, because P=U x I. I must admitt, a resonant tank circuit could be a solution indeed. In such circuits high currents are flowing without drawing it from the source directly. The source has only to compensate losses in the resonant tank circuit. So you are right, you can achieve strong alternating magnetic fields, without burning the source too much. Maybe it is possible to integrate my primary POCs in a parallel tank circuit. Ideally the source has only to deliver the power for the losses in the primary circuit, the load, not "seen" by the input coils should have high currents with voltages in phase.

And thank you for your confirmation, that strong rising currents are real. It helps to go further.

have a nice day too!

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